Almaren

[Arien the Maia]

I have always wondered if Melkor didn't rebel in the beginning and Arda wasn't marred...would the Valar still be on the isle of Almaren and would Elves and Men live together with them on it? Could someone help me out here?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I have always wondered if Melkor didn't rebel in the beginning and Arda wasn't marred...would the Valar still be on the isle of Almaren and would Elves and Men live together with them on it? Could someone help me out here?

then you would have had paradise on earth. forever. wouldnt have made for much of a story. ying yang. up down. good and evil. you cant have one without the other.

[Dúnedain]

Would men have even been created then?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Men were closest to Eru's heart, right?

Insidious, Iluvatar was there before anyone else, and he was not evil.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Men were closest to Eru's heart, right?

Insidious, Iluvatar was there before anyone else, and he was not evil.

nor was he pure goodness. he is well beyond those simple definitions. beyond our conceptualizing really. and remember melkor came from his thoughts so he WAS a part of Iluvatar which probably means the whole story of earth from beginning to end could not have been played out without some good and some evil. after all only Iluvatar knew how the whole thing would play out.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
nor was he pure goodness. he is well beyond those simple definitions. beyond our conceptualizing really. and remember melkor came from his thoughts so he WAS a part of Iluvatar which probably means the whole story of earth from beginning to end could not have been played out without some good and some evil. after all only Iluvatar knew how the whole thing would play out.

I always think of Iluvatar as being good...however, his creatures were given freewill, i.e. to choose to love Him or not...it's like Elrond said " not everything used to be evil, even Sauron was not in the beginning."

But you are right there wouldn't really be much of a story line...I had just always wondered at the possible outcome that would have been if Melkor chose to follow Iluvatar...He could have done great things since is he "he who arises in might".

[Finmandos12]

nor was he pure goodness.... remember melkor came from his thoughts so he WAS a part of Iluvatar

From the Ainulindale: It came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar.

Melkor's evil did not come from Iluvatar. Therefore, you cannot say that Iluvatar had evil in him.

the whole story of earth from beginning to end could not have been played out without some good and some evil. after all only Iluvatar knew how the whole thing would play out.

Iluvatar's vision, Arda Unmarred, was corrupted by Melkor into Arda Marred. Iluvatar will eventually heal Arda.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
But you are right there wouldn't really be much of a story line...I had just always wondered at the possible outcome that would have been if Melkor chose to follow Iluvatar...He could have done great things since is he "he who arises in might".

Oh I totallly hear you on this. Im that guy who has watched The Perfect Storm like 6 times and every time I find myself talking to the screen saying "no no just turn around dont go out this time. stay home this time. just end the movie now." But they do go out of course. Every time. And when they are coming back with the storm in front of them part of me actually thinks ok maybe THIS time they WONT try going back through the storm. Maybe theyll just wait it out in the Flemish Cap and then the movie can just end and things will be ok but of course they dont listen to me and every damn time they go back and hit the storm and they all die! They all die!!!

...um ok but same thing for middle earth. if melkor just HADNT been evil! If he had just been a decent guy. If the Valar had sat down together, maybe got some group counseling and worked all this out from the start maybe we could have avoided all this needless horror and death and pain. But then I read the books and sure enough he goes bad AGAIN! It keeps happening!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
From the Ainulindale: It came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar.

Melkor's evil did not come from Iluvatar. Therefore, you cannot say that Iluvatar had evil in him.

But Melkor CAME FROM the mind of Iluvatar. Therefor everything that composed him was once PART OF Iluvatar. This does not make Iluvatar evil. As i said before Iluvatar transends simplistic classification in such terms. But Iluvatar essentially contained all the elements of the universe. There was no other outside source. So everything that the world was originated with him. I guess the question is was Iluvatar a perfect being.

Iluvatar's vision, Arda Unmarred, was corrupted by Melkor into Arda Marred. Iluvatar will eventually heal Arda.

ah but Iluvatars vision took into account the free will of the valar. which in effect makes their free will an illusion. Heres what he says about this after the whole music battle between him and Melkor:

'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

so theres the story of the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings in a one paragraph nut shell. Iluvatar has this all figured out from the start. he is aware that there will be terrible pain among his children but in the end it will all work out for the best. and the more evil melkor does the better it will work out. you cant get around the plan of Iluvatar. it cant be "marred".

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Oh I totallly hear you on this. Im that guy who has watched The Perfect Storm like 6 times and every time I find myself talking to the screen saying "no no just turn around dont go out this time. stay home this time. just end the movie now." But they do go out of course. Every time. And when they are coming back with the storm in front of them part of me actually thinks ok maybe THIS time they WONT try going back through the storm. Maybe theyll just wait it out in the Flemish Cap and then the movie can just end and things will be ok but of course they dont listen to me and every damn time they go back and hit the storm and they all die! They all die!!!

...um ok but same thing for middle earth. if melkor just HADNT been evil! If he had just been a decent guy. If the Valar had sat down together, maybe got some group counseling and worked all this out from the start maybe we could have avoided all this needless horror and death and pain. But then I read the books and sure enough he goes bad AGAIN! It keeps happening!

lol I think that too!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
But Melkor CAME FROM the mind of Iluvatar. Therefor everything that composed him was once PART OF Iluvatar. This does not make Iluvatar evil. As i said before Iluvatar transends simplistic classification in such terms. But Iluvatar essentially contained all the elements of the universe. There was no other outside source. So everything that the world was originated with him. I guess the question is was Iluvatar a perfect being.




ah but Iluvatars vision took into account the free will of the valar. which in effect makes their free will an illusion. Heres what he says about this after the whole music battle between him and Melkor:



so theres the story of the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings in a one paragraph nut shell. Iluvatar has this all figured out from the start. he is aware that there will be terrible pain among his children but in the end it will all work out for the best. and the more evil melkor does the better it will work out. you cant get around the plan of Iluvatar. it cant be "marred".

I think that Iluvatar gave all of his creations free will so that they could choose to love him or not...obviously some didn't...Iluvatar is all knowing so he know's that some of his children (including the valar here) would not always be faitful to him My question is then, why did Iluvatar allow Arda to even be created? Was it beacuse of his love for his creations?

[Falagar]

Ilúvatar is something far greater than us, we simply can't imagine his reasons, they are "beyond us". That's my opinion, anyway.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
My question is then, why did Iluvatar allow Arda to even be created? Was it beacuse of his love for his creations?

Yes thats an interesting point. The easy answer is seek not the mind of god mere mortal for you cant hope to understand. But then if you look at the quote I made above its very interesting because Iluvatar says "...but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done." So in a way the WHOLE world was created as sort of a lesson to the valar. As if Iluvatar is this gigantic school teacher and he wants to show his students (especially Melkor) just what they did. Before Iluvatar makes this quote there is that sort of music battle where he and the other ainur go back and forth three times with melkor competing to dominate the music. And its as if hes decided ok then if THATS the song you want then thats the song you shall have. Behold!! And Arda is created according to that exact theme. So I dont think the issue of bad things happening to men and elves was even a concern to Iluvatar. I think he was trying to prove the point that all things work out as planned even if you attempt to have your effect on them otherwise. That in trying to rebel and be an individual and do your own thing you only fall into my plan all the more.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Falagar
Ilúvatar is something far greater than us, we simply can't imagine his reasons, they are "beyond us". That's my opinion, anyway.

That's true...it just raises questions for discussion!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Yes thats an interesting point. The easy answer is seek not the mind of god mere mortal for you cant hope to understand. But then if you look at the quote I made above its very interesting because Iluvatar says "...but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done." So in a way the WHOLE world was created as sort of a lesson to the valar. As if Iluvatar is this gigantic school teacher and he wants to show his students (especially Melkor) just what they did. Before Iluvatar makes this quote there is that sort of music battle where he and the other ainur go back and forth three times with melkor competing to dominate the music. And its as if hes decided ok then if THATS the song you want then thats the song you shall have. Behold!! And Arda is created according to that exact theme. So I dont think the issue of bad things happening to men and elves was even a concern to Iluvatar. I think he was trying to prove the point that all things work out as planned even if you attempt to have your effect on them otherwise. That in trying to rebel and be an individual and do your own thing you only fall into my plan all the more.

This whole thread is making me think of Iluvatar and the valar and arda in a completely different light, so to speak! Not a bad thing though.... I had never thought of it to that degree before