Ranking of Mair?

sauron100 · 01-17-2003, 01:27 PM

Hi guys, I have a question for you that i think will get alot of responses and if at all possible be answered , and the question to you is, what is the highest rank maiar, as in most powerful maiar?I came to the conclusion that it is Sauron, as he is more powerful than Gothmog, lord of balrogs,as well as a quote in the books from Gandalf the White,saying that I am more dangerous that anything you will meet,except if you are brought before the dark lord.Another reason, is often in the books, Gandalf is afraid of Sauron, as well as Saruman being a puppet of Saurons, being controlled, and most importantly it says in the Unfinished tales,that Curumo or Saruman was Mair of Aule and Sauron was stated to be greatest of that people.How would you rank Sauron and is he the most powerful Maiar?I also seemed to think that, wouldn't it be convenient for the most powerful maiar to serve highest rank valar.None of what I have said should be taken as fact, simply speculation, but I could everyones understanding as well as what you think.Something another person posted that Olorin feared Sauron so much so that he wanted not to go to Middlearth.Just a thought.Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Vaughan

Andúril · 01-17-2003, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Sauron100:
Hi guys, I have a question for you that i think will get alot of responses and if at all possible be answered , and the question to you is, what is the highest rank maiar, as in most powerful maiar?I came to the conclusion that it is Sauron, as he is more powerful than Gothmog, lord of balrogs,as well as a quote in the books from Gandalf the White,saying that I am more dangerous that anything you will meet,except if you are brought before the dark lord.Another reason, is often in the books, Gandalf is afraid of Sauron, as well as Saruman being a puppet of Saurons, being controlled, and most importantly it says in the Unfinished tales,that Curumo or Saruman was Mair of Aule and Sauron was stated to be greatest of that people.How would you rank Sauron and is he the most powerful Maiar?I also seemed to think that, wouldn't it be convenient for the most powerful maiar to serve highest rank valar.None of what I have said should be taken as fact, simply speculation, but I could everyones understanding as well as what you think.Something another person posted that Olorin feared Sauron so much so that he wanted not to go to Middlearth.Just a thought.Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Vaughan

LOL!

Everyone, meet my brother.

Dunadan · 01-17-2003, 02:43 PM

Osse (maia of Ulmo) and Eonwe (of Manwe) would be nails (hard as)

Finrod Felagund · 01-17-2003, 03:30 PM

Well, Eonwe was said to be the "greatest in arms". (That makes it sound like hisarms are really big.)
And Olorin was the "Gratest in wisdom"
But the most powerful. Probably sauron did not start out themost powerful but through his many years as second in command to Morgoth and as his own master, he grew immensely in power.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-17-2003, 04:06 PM

Doesn't it seem as though Sauron's power fluxuated back and forth. He became powerful after the downfall of Morgoth, but he lost his power in the SA when Isildur cut the Ring from his finger. Then he goes and spends a time regaining his strength again. It just seems that he sometimes very powerful, and sometimes not.

Dunadan · 01-17-2003, 06:14 PM

Good points. Presumably Sauron also benefitted from the residual will of Morgoth, which hung around like a bad smell. So perhaps we can't know what is innate to Sauron and what is amplified by the seeds planted by Morgoth.

(Sorry, I think I mixed more metaphors than a metaphorical metaphor mixer in that last sentence.)

cheers

d

adanedhel · 01-18-2003, 05:40 PM

Don't forget Melian, she was powerful enough to keep a whole kingdom protected (the Girdle of Melian), and before that was in place she turned Ungoliant away from Neldoreth by her power alone.

Andúril · 01-18-2003, 06:39 PM

And her daughter, the result of breeding with a "lesser" being, was certainly pretty damn powerful.

sauron100 · 01-19-2003, 06:20 AM

Just remember that because Sauron put his power into the ring, assuming 90% was put into the ring, that would severly limit his physical power as in might.Of course he is more powerful, but only in influence, controlling of others, which was the main and sole purpose of the ring, to control the other rings, and not to increase his native power, if anything his power was decreased exponentially.Seems to me that even though 90%(purely speculation) was put into the ring, he was still a very powerful opponent.So in other words, to fully understand how powerful he really was,assuming he never made the One ring,all his power would be intact, then he would kick every mair's ass to Bloemfontein(isn't that Tokiens birth place??), i'm from South Africa if anyone would like to know.

Andúril · 01-19-2003, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Sauron100, brother of Andúril:
Just remember that because Sauron put his power into the ring, assuming 90% was put into the ring, that would severly limit his physical power as in might.Of course he is more powerful, but only in influence, controlling of others, which was the main and sole purpose of the ring, to control the other rings, and not to increase his native power, if anything his power was decreased exponentially.Seems to me that even though 90%(purely speculation) was put into the ring, he was still a very powerful opponent.So in other words, to fully understand how powerful he really was,assuming he never made the One ring,all his power would be intact, then he would kick every mair's ass to Bloemfontein(isn't that Tokiens birth place??), i'm from South Africa if anyone would like to know.

*wonders why his post was directed to me specifically

*

Anyway, it's "every Maia's ass".

The Lady of Ithilien · 01-19-2003, 10:22 PM

Quote:

wouldn't it be convenient for the most powerful maiar to serve highest rank valar

Well, that's just it, isn't it. In the "Valaquenta" of The Silmarillion, it's said that "Manwë and Melkor (Morgoth's real name) were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor..."

And Sauron was Melkor's chief Maia.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-19-2003, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
Well, that's just it, isn't it. In the "Valaquenta" of The Silmarillion, it's said that "Manwë and Melkor (Morgoth's real name) were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor..."

And Sauron was Melkor's chief Maia.

In the beginning Sauron was of the Maiar of Aule.

Andúril · 01-20-2003, 02:31 AM

*wonders if Tulkas had any Maiar*

sauron100 · 01-20-2003, 06:41 AM

Anduril, you are most stubborn in constantly trying to disprove the fact that Sauron could be the most powerful Mair.Seems to me, and to everyone else, that you seem hell bent on trying to prove otherwise as their are references that show Saurons role in context to power that i have already shown in my starting thread.'Curumo or Saruman was Mair of Aule and Sauron was stated to be greatest of that people' written in the Unfinished Tales. Don't be so quick to dismiss what could be evidence.To everyone that cares, Anduril is my brother, and is clearly has no intent to believing this, as many people have said that Sauron in all liklihood would be the most powerful, but of course you deny without giving any useful infomation regarding your reasons.Try and bring references that disprove what has been said, contrary to the above proof, you clearly need some motivation unless you want to deny for the sake of being ignorant.

Lizra · 01-20-2003, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andúril
LOL!

Everyone, meet my brother.

You have a brother!

Is he as "good" as you?!

Andúril · 01-20-2003, 08:52 AM

Vaughan, I will not ignore your nonsense.

Almost every sentence contains language (grammar, punctuation and spelling) issues, and examples of logical or argumentative fallacies.

Quote:

Sauron100:
Anduril, you are most stubborn in constantly trying to disprove the fact that Sauron could be the most powerful Mair.

Straw man
I do not dispute that Sauron could be the most powerful Maia, but I remain skeptical of the "fact" that Sauron is the most powerful Maia. You have misrepresented my position.

Ad Hominem
Whether I am stubborn or not has nothing to do with the plausability or cogency of my arguments. You are arguing against me, instead of my arguments (when applicable).

Language
It's Maia, not "Mair".

Quote:

More:
Seems to me, and to everyone else, that you seem hell bent on trying to prove otherwise as their are references that show Saurons role in context to power that i have already shown in my starting thread.

Begging the question.
How can you be certain "everyone else" has interpreted my posts in the way that you have? At best this is a grossly exaggerated assumption.

Non sequitur.
The conclusion does not follow from the premise. Just because there are "references that show Saurons(sic) role in context to power" does not imply or indicate that I am "hell bent" on doing anything.

Language
"Their" is spelt "there".
There is an apostrophe in "Sauron's".
Saying "Saurons(sic) role in context to power" makes virtually no sense.
I should be capitalized when used as a pronoun.

Quote:

More:
Curumo or Saruman was Mair of Aule and Sauron was stated to be greatest of that people' written in the Unfinished Tales.

Non sequitur
Just because Gorthaur the Cruel was the greatest of the Maiar of Aule, it doesn't follow necessarily that he was the greatest of all the Maiar.

Language
Once again, it is "Maia", not "Mair".

Quote:

More:
Don't be so quick to dismiss what could be evidence.

Unless it is stated somewhere in Tolkien's literature that Aule's Maiar were the most powerful or highest ranked, your "evidence" serves no purpose in this discussion.

I wouldn't ask you to physically search for such support, since I know that you own no Tolkien literature. In fact, you have not read past the beginning of The Two Towers. But I will ignore this fact and judge your arguments on merit alone.

Quote:

More:
To everyone that cares, Anduril is my brother, and is clearly has no intent to believing this, as many people have said that Sauron in all liklihood would be the most powerful, but of course you deny without giving any useful infomation regarding your reasons.

"Useful information" regarding my reasons? I merely point out, in certain cases, where I have seen an unjustified inference. Or I ask for assertions to be supported by quotes. These actions do not require "useful information".

Straw man
I do in fact believe that Sauron was the greatest Maia of Aule. Where did I say that I do not?

Ad hominem
My being your brother has absolutely no relevance to anything.

Language
Part of that sentence, "and is clearly has no intent to believing this," is just plain messed up.
The first part of the sentence looks suspicious too, but I won't comment.
"Infomation" is spelt "Information".
You actually accused "everyone that cares" of denial, but I was able to figure out your mistake.
"Liklihood" is spelt "Likelihood".

Quote:

More:
Try and bring references that disprove what has been said, contrary to the above proof, you clearly need some motivation unless you want to deny for the sake of being ignorant.

Your first post contains no "proof". In fact, you admit that none of what you have said "should be taken as fact, simply speculation". You additionally did not quote any text.

I do not need motivation. Motivation is irrelevant in this discussion.

Any ignorance on my part has been highlighted by myself where necessary. I mentioned on other threads that I do not have access (at the moment) to HoME, UT et al, which is why I specifically ask people to back up their opinions with text.

Andúril · 01-20-2003, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Lizra:
You have a brother!

Is he as "good" as you?!

Well, that depends on what you mean by "good".

Lizra · 01-20-2003, 10:53 AM

Oh please! Not the definition thing! Nevermind!

Andúril · 01-20-2003, 01:09 PM

But you think I'm good, right?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-20-2003, 01:29 PM

Which brother is the elder here? Gosh you two sound like Feanor and Fingolfin squabbling.

01-17-2003, 01:27 PM	#1
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Ranking of Mair? Hi guys, I have a question for you that i think will get alot of responses and if at all possible be answered , and the question to you is, what is the highest rank maiar, as in most powerful maiar?I came to the conclusion that it is Sauron, as he is more powerful than Gothmog, lord of balrogs,as well as a quote in the books from Gandalf the White,saying that I am more dangerous that anything you will meet,except if you are brought before the dark lord.Another reason, is often in the books, Gandalf is afraid of Sauron, as well as Saruman being a puppet of Saurons, being controlled, and most importantly it says in the Unfinished tales,that Curumo or Saruman was Mair of Aule and Sauron was stated to be greatest of that people.How would you rank Sauron and is he the most powerful Maiar?I also seemed to think that, wouldn't it be convenient for the most powerful maiar to serve highest rank valar.None of what I have said should be taken as fact, simply speculation, but I could everyones understanding as well as what you think.Something another person posted that Olorin feared Sauron so much so that he wanted not to go to Middlearth.Just a thought.Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Vaughan

01-17-2003, 03:30 PM	#4
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	Well, Eonwe was said to be the "greatest in arms". (That makes it sound like hisarms are really big.) And Olorin was the "Gratest in wisdom" But the most powerful. Probably sauron did not start out themost powerful but through his many years as second in command to Morgoth and as his own master, he grew immensely in power. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

01-17-2003, 04:06 PM	#5
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Doesn't it seem as though Sauron's power fluxuated back and forth. He became powerful after the downfall of Morgoth, but he lost his power in the SA when Isildur cut the Ring from his finger. Then he goes and spends a time regaining his strength again. It just seems that he sometimes very powerful, and sometimes not. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-18-2003, 05:40 PM	#7
adanedhel Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Chigago, IL Posts: 40	Don't forget Melian, she was powerful enough to keep a whole kingdom protected (the Girdle of Melian), and before that was in place she turned Ungoliant away from Neldoreth by her power alone. __________________ "Say this to Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest." Feanor

01-19-2003, 06:20 AM	#9
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Anduril Just remember that because Sauron put his power into the ring, assuming 90% was put into the ring, that would severly limit his physical power as in might.Of course he is more powerful, but only in influence, controlling of others, which was the main and sole purpose of the ring, to control the other rings, and not to increase his native power, if anything his power was decreased exponentially.Seems to me that even though 90%(purely speculation) was put into the ring, he was still a very powerful opponent.So in other words, to fully understand how powerful he really was,assuming he never made the One ring,all his power would be intact, then he would kick every mair's ass to Bloemfontein(isn't that Tokiens birth place??), i'm from South Africa if anyone would like to know.

01-17-2003, 02:43 PM	#3
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Osse (maia of Ulmo) and Eonwe (of Manwe) would be nails (hard as)

01-17-2003, 06:14 PM	#6
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Good points. Presumably Sauron also benefitted from the residual will of Morgoth, which hung around like a bad smell. So perhaps we can't know what is innate to Sauron and what is amplified by the seeds planted by Morgoth. (Sorry, I think I mixed more metaphors than a metaphorical metaphor mixer in that last sentence.) cheers d

01-18-2003, 06:39 PM	#8
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	And her daughter, the result of breeding with a "lesser" being, was certainly pretty damn powerful.

01-20-2003, 02:31 AM	#13
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	wonders if Tulkas had any Maiar

01-20-2003, 06:41 AM	#14
sauron100 Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16	Anduril Anduril, you are most stubborn in constantly trying to disprove the fact that Sauron could be the most powerful Mair.Seems to me, and to everyone else, that you seem hell bent on trying to prove otherwise as their are references that show Saurons role in context to power that i have already shown in my starting thread.'Curumo or Saruman was Mair of Aule and Sauron was stated to be greatest of that people' written in the Unfinished Tales. Don't be so quick to dismiss what could be evidence.To everyone that cares, Anduril is my brother, and is clearly has no intent to believing this, as many people have said that Sauron in all liklihood would be the most powerful, but of course you deny without giving any useful infomation regarding your reasons.Try and bring references that disprove what has been said, contrary to the above proof, you clearly need some motivation unless you want to deny for the sake of being ignorant.

01-20-2003, 10:53 AM	#18
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Oh please! Not the definition thing! Nevermind! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

01-20-2003, 01:09 PM	#19
Andúril The Original Corruptor Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,881	But you think I'm good, right?

01-20-2003, 01:29 PM	#20
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Which brother is the elder here? Gosh you two sound like Feanor and Fingolfin squabbling. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide