Viggo Mortensen Puts His Foot in It

[bropous]

http://oregonmag.com/Viggo.htm
http://www.lucianne.com/threads2.asp?artnum=266229

[The above links are to a Larry Elder article outlining Viggo Mortensen's comments, the second to a news commentary page with one or two insightful refutations....]

Well, well, well. What is it with some actors that they cannot see past the inner walls of their own lower intestine when it comes to issues of right and wrong?

Case in Point: Viggo Mortensen's recent interview.

In it, he blames the US for just about every evil in the world, says the United States is the antagonist in the War on Terror, and actually states, regarding Afghanistan, that US acts like the servant of Sauron, totally IGNORING the Orcish horde who kept the women in that nation prisoner for so many years and the improvement in the lives of the average Afghan since the US-supported civil war.

Folks, YES, the United States HAS made mistakes in its history, but in the balance, has done FAR greater good for the average world citizen than the collective efforts of all other nations. When food is scarce, when earthquakes strike, when typhoons wreak havoc, it is the United States that is there first with relief for people in need. AND, when people are oppressed, butchered, repressed, tortured and abused, do they look to the EU flag, or the flag of Australia or Britain or France or New Zealand? Nope. It is the Star Spangled Banner to which they cry for relief. At times, that cry is heard and answered, as it has been in Afghanistan and will be shortly answered in Iraq. I guess some folks won;t care about the lives of others until someone close to them is butchered at the hands of a terrorist.

Of course, this will be the perfect opportunity for the America-haters, lacking in facts and in analytical ability who will simply spew the tired rhetoric of the socialist appeasers of tyrants, that we should turn our backs on the world and just let the Orcs win. Viggo Mortensen, sadly, is of those ranks.

So. Will I boycott the remaining two films, as some are suggesting? Nope. I can put aside an actor's personal opinions and admire his work, and besides, it would take a great and unbearable affront to keep me from seeing the next two films. In our nation, there IS room for difference of opinion, and of course, when some moron like Mortensen starts flapping his gums without facts to back up his mindless drivel, it is the right of those who disagree to point out the logical fallacies.

Do we string him up? Nope. Do we throw him out of the country? Nope. Do we burn down his house and kill his children? No way. But I can guarantee you that aside from Lord of the Rings, I'll not attend another film he is in. That will not hurt his pocketbook in the least, and his career will continue on for a long time, but I'll not add my measly thrity-five cents to his wallet.

The United States as an agent of Sauron? Mortensen, you need to read the book again, bro. Y'ain't getting it.

[bropous]

Slight amplification:

I do not hate Viggo Mortensen.

I DO think he does not fully understand:
1. American history;
2. Geopolitics;
3. The indepsensability of oil to modern technology;
4. The true nature of Sauron and Orcs;
5. The true threat which fundamentalist Islam poses to the West;
6. What life is really like under a TRUE tyrant;
7. How offhand comments by one actor can affect the paychecks of all involved in a film;
8. How appeasing dictators actually ends up in more people being killed than in wars of liberation;
9. The TRUE motivations behind our actions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, North Korea; and
10. The the costs of inaction are, many times, far greater than the regrettable costs of action.

However, I DO think that Viggo could really think about his positions, look at the evidence to the contrary, and come to a real understanding of just how wrong and incorrect his comments in the interview are.

Folks, we Mooters hail from MANY nations, and something also binds us besides our love of Tolkien: The threat to each and every one of us from despots and lunatics who would love nothing better than slaughtering hundreds of innocent civilians intentionally to make a point about a struggle with the West which petered out right before Columbus' voyages to America.

There IS evil in the world, ladies and gentlemen, and though the Mouth of Sauron speaks in dulcet tones of his master's deep abiding love for peace and serenity, in the tunnels below Barad-Dur the Orcs breed like cockroaches and train in suicide tactics, whilst Minas Tirith, the Last Hope of the West, is assailed from without and within by servants of the Dark Lord, many wearing the livery of Gondor itself.

And, as he did in Middle Earth, Sauron will fail in our lands as well.

ALL of us, Mooters, are the United Lords of the West. I raise a toast to the victory of good over evil, and to the victory of truth over lies.

[bropous]

Here is the text of my email to Larry Elder:

==========================================

I also take humbrage with Viggo Mortensen's comments on Charlie Rose. I think his comments and attitudes bespeak a very limited understanding, not only of American history and geopolitics, and not only of Tolkien's works and attitudes, but of simple right and wrong.

I direct you to my own comments regarding Mr. Mortensen's babble, which are posted on a site dedicated to discussing Tolkien: http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...&threadid=6307 . It is an international forum, and though I am sure the majority of the comments which will be launched in response will agree with Mortensen, I do feel that some things DID need to be said, and know there will be at least one or two of my fellow Tolkienites who will take umbrage with Mortensen's opinions.

However, Mr. Elder, I will not be joining you in boycotting the films. One actor, short-sighted and mindless in his opinions as Mortensen may be, won't dissuade me from seeing films I have been waiting twenty-five plus years to see. I do not think, in any reach of the imagination, that Mortensen speaks for the majority of the actors nor of the thousands of people involved in crafting these films. I admire your dedication to those who have been butchered at the very hands of those Orcs whom Mortensen seems to champion, and it will be of not small consequence to me as I see the remaining two films. To me, the next two films are an excellent refutation of Mortensen's opinions in and of themselves. The United States a servant of Sauron?

The United States as Gondor, more like. And Mortensen the Mouth of Sauron at the Morannon.

I do appreciate your writing the article, and I agree that Mortensen really misses Tolkien's whole theme of the book(s). The best summarization of what the purpose of the book(s) came from old John Roald Ruel himself, from "Letters of JRR Tolkien", and which I use as the signature line on all of my postings regarding Tolkien:

[attached signature]

[Dunadan]

I looked at both of these links and could find zero words (count them) quoted directly from Mortensen, just someone's second-hand report, which makes me deeply suspicious of it.

[Nibs]

Junky "Charlie Rose" website will only let me purchase a tape of the show... I just wanna read a transcript! Oh well.

U.S.A.! U.S.A.!

[Gerbil]

Erm Bropous, aren't you forgetting the fact that the Taliban were in power because America put them there?

America does 'good' as, at best, a side-effect to their own personal goals.

EG take Colombia. The US is pouring money into it to stop the terrorists and drugs imported into America.
Now, of course, this is a 'good thing', no-one will deny that.
But, look at the motivation.

Is it a generous gesture for the war on terror?

Of course not.

They claim they are doing it to prvent the drugs getting shipped into the States. What a load of rubbish. This is basic supply and demand stuff. If the drugs don't come from Colombia, they'll come from elsewhere. Surely a better route is to educate Americans to not take drugs? Prevention is better than 'cure'.

It's actually about the huge oil reserves and pipelines in South America, which of course mostly benefit the States.

Saying they 'do more good than bad' may well be true, but I used to get told:

'It's better to do the wrong thing for the right reasons, than the right thing for the wrong reasons'.

Ain't old sayings great? And easy to use as part of an arguement too

Anyway point is, firstly, anyone who thinks America ever does anything other than advance it's own agenda is either very very blinkered, or American.
Secondly, their foreign policy backfires so damn often it'd be funny if it wasn't for all the lives at stake.

Finally, a tip for Americans travelling abroad:

Say you are Canadian - helps immensely

[Gerbil]

PS - to actually be on thread, using ME as an analogy at any stage is silly. Bropous says Viggo is silly for doing so (or is it for doing so and getting it 'wrong'? ) then goes on and mentions:

And, as he did in Middle Earth, Sauron will fail in our lands as well.

ALL of us, Mooters, are the United Lords of the West. I raise a toast to the victory of good over evil, and to the victory of truth over lies.

Apart from it's cornyness, isn't this buying into the same thing you've just slated?

[Gerbil]

As another quick comment since this appears to be the LotR political thread

Let's not forget that americans are using this 'war on terror' to justify otherwise unforgivable atrocities.

Let's say, completely at random , oooh I dunno.

How about Israel and Palestine?

As soon as this 'war on terror' was declared, Isreal declared Palestinian factions were terrorists, which allowed them to go in and kill 'em, and try (and fail) to push them out. Now for some strange feeling, can't think why, I feel that the US backs Israel. Oh blimey, that's because it does! The US Jews are a powerful hidden current in US politics, and they are helping this sort of thing to happen, which is why America, with all of it's 'influence' over Israel, could do no more than issue a few 'please stop being naughty' comments about the situation.

Compare this enthusiasm on a potential state of war with, say, Iraq. Not that I'm saying the situations are the same, but see the differences of approach between a scenario which is quite clearly anti-american-interest (Iraq and it's oil) and one which is quietly pro-american (Israel and it's US backing). If it doesn't make you think, it should do.

I could go on, but what's the point?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Viggo is enitled to his own freedom of speech. I believe thta though America has doen soem great things for this world, it is like all other countries in the fact that it has done many evil things and still continues to do so. It is like all countires, mainly looking out for what is best for America, and every country does so and rightly so. America is a lot more 'democratic' then most countries, there are a lot more black/asian poliaticians in the American palriament then in the British one, but I believe that the war on Iraq is in the main over oil. I would prefer it if a peaceful solution was resolved, but with George Bush in charge, it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

[Gerbil]

Viggo is enitled to his own freedom of speech.

A beautiful line I must admit - isn't this one of the things American freedom is based on?

It is like all countires, mainly looking out for what is best for America, and every country does so and rightly so.

Not strictly 'rightly so', and indeed in these troubled times countries need to join together for the future good more and more, eg the war on terror, environment etc (which the US is decidely crap on - Europe makes resolutions for a cleaner environment, and the US basically sticks it's fingers up and says 'we'll do what we want'). Not that Europe is something to be proud of of course, the recent oil spill was a disgrace, and just shows what happens when countries 'look out for themselves' without thinking about the bigger picture. Ah well, it backfired on the Spanish, so maybe next time they won't be so hasty to be selfish.

America is a lot more 'democratic' then most countries, there are a lot more black/asian poliaticians in the American palriament then in the British one,

I don't believe this matters particularly. This is edging towards the PC-ness that is currently stupidly over-done in the UK. Who cares what colour people are? Cos if you don't, it shouldn't matter what colour people are in parliament or any other job - as long as they do it.
I remember a few years ago in the US, good old affirmitive action in California. A law to try to rid racism in the workplace. Actually ended up being more racist than the rules before it. Nice eh?
As for the US 'democracy', that's a farce really, like everywhere. The difference with the US is it's open about it. Things called lobbying. See what kind of resources the NRA has at it's disposal, and you'll see how a minority can band together to overthrow the usually silent majority.

but I believe that the war on Iraq is in the main over oil. I would prefer it if a peaceful solution was resolved, but with George Bush in charge, it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

Well said. Trouble is, it's gone so far I can't see how a war can be avoided. Remember that Saddam Hussien is over 60, and has no natural 'heir' to carry on ruling Iraq. I wouldn't put it past him to wage war on us lot just as a way of going out 'in style'.

[Entlover]

Many of us Americans are praying for peace - we do not want Iraqui civilians hurt any more than they do -- but not at the cost of "peace in our time" appeasement - tyrants have to be resisted or they just keep getting worse. The day I was born, several thousand (I used to know the exact number) Jews died in concentration camps. I know that because the same number died every day that month. - and the month before, and the month after . . .

A war can easily be avoided. Saddam just has to comply with UN requests. Either destroy or enumerate his weaponry.

If the incipient war is over oil, I think most Americans are unaware of it. It would be over a crazy Hitler-type stock-piling nuclear and biological weapons.

It's very disappointing that Viggo is saying stuff like this (if true) when he is representing the lords of the West . . . if the actor playing Grima were to say it, it'd be less upsetting. Let's hope Viggo rethinks his position.

[Starr Polish]

I personally do not think that war is a sufficient means of maintaining peace (du-uh...), though it would have been nice if Viggo had said how he thinks America should have responded to the attacks. He said we should have, but gives no alternative solution.

Viggo is entitled to freedom of speech, and so am I, which means I could complain about his opinions. Because that's just what they are, opinions.

If someone that wasn't famous made a similar insight would you boycott them, and how? Just a thought.

Also, and this is not meant to be derogatory, if you truly feel THAT strongly about his opinion, why not boycott LOTR as well? I'm aware that you are a huge fan, but that's like PETA people saying "All animals should be freed and we shouldn't kill them" and then killing a mosquito as it bites them. Mosquitoes have to eat too, y'know. I don't know if that made the point I wanted it to...hmm.

[Nibs]

Kind of odd how it turns so quickly from what was intended to be a tame tirade against Viggo's supposed comments to varying complaints about America... is that to say that you agree with what Mr. Mortenson has been rumored to say?

Golly, any one can dig up crap about where you live, but it takes real character to see the good, especially when you live on another continent.

I'll see that toast and raise you a solo of "God Bless America", bropous .

[Starr Polish]

I never said I didn't love the U.S.A., in fact, I'm quite aware of how lucky I am to live here (probably not aware as I could be). I thank God I was born here.

Personally, I think this thread should be moved to GM, but that's all for now.

[WallRocker]

I don't think I'll ever be able to see a film with Viggo in it again either. I will watch the remaining movies, but nothing else. However, I was wondering what the verification of this article was. They don't show an actual interview, so this could just be one side of the story. Even if it's only half true, I won't be able to support Viggo, but I would like to see Viggo's side of the story.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
I never said I didn't love the U.S.A., in fact, I'm quite aware of how lucky I am to live here (probably not aware as I could be). I thank God I was born here.

I actually began my post when Inderjit Sanghera's was the last... I didn't mean you at all... in fact as far as I was concerned at the time, you didn't exist. And now everything I say pertains to you? What an ego you have!

Or were you even referring to me?

[crickhollow]

Gerbs:Erm Bropous, aren't you forgetting the fact that the Taliban were in power because America put them there?

Actually, that's a misconception. The US was involved in helping Afganistan "freedom fighters" stave off the Russians in the 80s, but the government that was supported by the US during that time was overthrown by the Taliban in 1997.

[Elfhelm]

My wife told me some actor was anti-gay based on indirect quotes and media hullabulloo. I didn't believe it. I imagine the quotes were out of context, and since the guy was Australian she should take that cultural element into the picture. But she was refusing to watch his movies anymore. Finally I begged her to go see a recent one when it came out and the guy wore pantyhose and had a line that basically went "I'm gay, very gay!". Then she realized that the media feeds on mania caused by misrepresented quotes. Now it's OK to watch Mad Max again.

I bet it will prove to be similar nonsense in this case.

I back the UN regarding Iraq. Bush may not lilke having to work with the UN on this issue, but the "rule of law" can't just be something you blurt out when someone ticks you off. You have to live by it, too.

I don't have a problem with Brits who think we're all inorant baboons here. Many of us have the impression that they are all snobs.

Hey, will you boycott all of Barbara Streisand's movies, too? Or Paul Newman? There are a lot of US citizen actors opposed to unprovoked attack on Iraq. No need to single out the Brits or Aussies.

[Elfhelm]

http://oregonmag.com/PBSIslam.htm

I must warn you. If you go to this website you will find hatred aplenty.

The people who run Oregon Magazine are the same ones who want to destroy Oregon forever. They are the Sarumans of Oregon. They talk sweet and promise taxcuts, but they want to tear down the beautiful forests. They have been a thorn in the side of middle of the rooad and left-leaning Oregonians for many years.

And to top it off, their leaders are going to jail.

They fake signatures on referendums. They pour many times the legal limit of money into changing the laws to suit their destruction of our beautiful state. They are going to jail for it.

They are trying to tell us what is right because we are all too stupid to figure that out for ourselves. The other article link I just posted will give you an inkling of what kind of losers these phony hate-mongers really are.

Believe their honey-tongues at your own risk.

[bropous]

Gerbil, your assertion that the United States installed the Taliban into power is not based in fact. I WILL deny that the "war on Drugs" is a GOOD thing. As far as humor and American foreign policy and lives being at stake, you're RIGHT. And it ain't funny when American foreign policy is not used to help liberate oppressed people, and that when it IS used to help oppressed people, e.g. Afghanistan and Iraq, it is belittled from outside and within by people who don't even have the basis of comprehension of the full picture to even formulate a coherent argument against it.

Furthermore, "PS - to actually be on thread, using ME as an analogy at any stage is silly. Bropous says Viggo is silly for doing so (or is it for doing so and getting it 'wrong'?" YES, it is trying to use a Tolkien analogy and getting it WRONG, Gerbil.

Israel creates atrocities, huh? Gee, I guess you know nothing about the HORDES of suicide bombers vomiting forth from the self-imposed impoverished "refugee camps" who INTENTIONALLY attack women and children, compared to the ISraeli military, which bends over BACKWARDS to avoid civilian casulaties even when their own civilian population is under terror attack? Have you no knowledge of history? Are you unaware of the hijackings the PLO have undertaken for decades, the 1972 Munich murders of Israeli ATHLETES, the hijackings of cruise liners and bombings and poisonings and stabbings and murder the Palestinians have been using against Israeli CITIZENS, Gerbil? My, you are ignorant of history.

As for the US attacking Iraq, of course facile dolts will join the ranks of the mind-numbed greenie peaceniks who want to claim that the prime motivation is oil. It ain't. It is about nuclear, biological and chemical weapons being developed by the Iraqis and used against the US OR its allies, and yes, Gerbil, clutch the pearls, that includes the Israelis. Sadam IS sitting astride quite vital oil shipping routes, though, I will give you that, and plenty of those routes are under threat from SCUDs, FROGs and Al-Husayni missiles, and Sadam has already proved in the past his willingness to use such weapons, even against innocent civilians.

What is it with this mindset which cannot EVER side with the innocent civilians? Why must the socialist appeasers always be drawn to the worst choice of two? Why is it that they can NEVER see the justification for the US to use military force to liberate people, and yet can turn their eyes to the MILLIONS of innocents who get butchered when the United States turns away and takes their advice to refrain from getting involved?

As for your comment about U.S. Jews, I find that particularly revolting, young man, and a shocking display of bigotry and stereotyping. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yes, Mortenson DOES have a right to speak his opinion, Gerbil. I don't slam him for voicing his mind. I DO slam him for the inability to recognize the difference between good and evil, and his obvious lack of compassion for the suffering the people of Afghanistan and Iraq have endured, and his limited conception of how the lives of those common folk will be improved by the United States taking military action, removing the threat to the general populace, and helping install REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLICS in those nations.

Contrary to the bleatings of some, the United States is not some hideous power-grubbing grasping monster seeking only its own enrichment. The United States DOES happen to be a representative republic, and though at times strays from its original and most important intent, has proved to this planet again and again that we, the cast-offs of ALL nations, have the dedication and care for our fellow man that we will NOT sit idly by and watch the common folks be abused, enslaved and murdered. We have paid the price in BLOOD, Gerbil, to earn the right to become the world's poiliceman, and by golly, when it is in our power to roll back the clutches of tyrranny, and have the right leaders in place with the will and determination to stand up for what is right, we DO what is right.

Liberating oppressed people is the right thing to do.

Painting the entire motivations of a great nation because SOME people who have attaned power in it over the years have at times used that power to enrich their own financial situaitons is illogical.

We ain't saints, bud, we don't claim to be. But don't misunderstand, we won't be hamstrung by Neville Chamberlain types who would have been comfortable with France remaining under Nazi German control. Just like American boys fought and died in Europe TWICE last century to free common people from tyrants and bloodthirsty despots, and were prepared to do it a third time, we and our allies will face down this threat in Iraq and move on to take down Syria, Lebanon and North Korea, as well as any other nation which thinks it can train and dispatch terrorists against peaceful nations without consequence.