Will there ever be another revolution in the Western World?

[Coney]

Can you ever see the possibility of a revolution in a Western Country?

Do you ever think there will be a REAL 3rd WW, if so why?

[markedel]

A revolution? I suppose anything is possible. After all in 1750 no one saw the decleration of indepedence, and in 1893 no one would have believed Russia would be communist.

[Aeryn]

markedel I agree with that.

Coney - Where is Tin Nan Org (or wherever) that's not a real place right.

(I'm not a geographical whiz, I can arely remember that to the East is the Atlantic and the West is the Pacific ok?)

[Cirdan]

Tir Nan Og is a mythical land from a children's story I believe.

A third world war is a distinct possibility because many third world countries are emerging as industrial powers but have not yet undergone the social revolutions that the west has. It is a common side effect that unrest would lead to regional wars. What would western powers do if an India-Pakistan war did go nuclear? The kinds of alliances among the most powerful nations are not a threat now as in the first half of the twentieth century, but diminishing resourses and greying populations will lead to less productive economies. Production was increased greatly by computerization so it is difficult to predict whether this is a persistent trend.

Revolution is a long shot for now. It would require a dramatic change in the economy to incite that sort of change. A slowing economy is nothing like an all out depression. The mechanisms that are in place to prevent this from happening might be removed by those seeking to boost the economy unnaturally. Some of the changes made in the S&L industries regulations and corporate account rules in the US had a short term boosting effect and a longer term backlash.

[Treebeard's apprentice]

*Psychic Prediction of the Week*

Give it enough time and there WILL be a revolution SOMEWHERE.




(Damn, that was easy. I shoulda been an oracle or something.)

[afro-elf]

Do you count South America as a Western country?

Tir Nan Og is the land of the Ever Young from Celtic myth.

[Coney]

Originally posted by afro-elf
Do you count South America as a Western country?

Yes. Any country you have a mind to discuss really

I started the thread as I was reading an article on the 100,000 or so people who "peacefully" demonstrated outside the Whitehouse recently and I realised that every demonstration that has been held recently in the western world has either been peaceful or swiftly quelled by the authorities ................... this led me to thinking of countries which are currently, and will continue to be, policed by the UN, Kososvo, Afghanistan etc. Recent elections in Kosovo had a poor turn-out, showing a very worrying trend towards apathy in this country very new to democracy. But if Kosovo is policed by the UN then I can, partially, understand why the people do not worry about who is in power.

The fall of communism in Russia was hugely dependent on who the Russian army would side with.

I realised that any country with true military power is pretty much immune to revolution. Any person(s) disagreeing with the way a country is ran are labelled political activists or terrorists, if they do not demonstrate peacefully and within' the governments laws..........so is revolution in the true sense, the people achieving a change of government forcibly, although not necessarily violently, still possible?

[Elvellon]

Originally posted by Coney


I realised that any country with true military power is pretty much immune to revolution. Any person(s) disagreeing with the way a country is ran are labelled political activists or terrorists, if they do not demonstrate peacefully and within' the governments laws..........so is revolution in the true sense, the people achieving a change of government forcibly, although not necessarily violently, still possible?

It is mostly true that a strong military precludes revolution, providing that the army remains loyal to the regime…

However, as it has been proven repeatedly in the past, an army is still permeable to external social influence. The result: sometimes revolution stars in the army, and sometimes the army joins in.

So, of course revolution is still possible. No country is entirely immune to it. If social conditions are “right” then it becomes a real possibility. It all depends of how accepted the regime is; without a reasonable popular support any regime is doomed in the long run.

[Sween]

I can see there even been a problem in this country. Enoc powell made sopme good points in his rivers of blood speach we have let to many people in too quickly. The asians esspecially are not intergratiing correctally.

There is now no difference in the birth rates of the races in britian. I can see huge upheaval in the next few years when the white man no longer becomes the majority in this country

[Aeryn]

Its allmost christmas

- Sween

Sween....Sweeny....the proper way to say that would be "It's almost Christmas"
Its : possessive. It's: Abbreviated form of It is.
Allmost : not a word. Almost: nearly.
Christmas: proper noun, so it should be capitalized.
Okay, if that came off smartassy it wasn't intended to be. Just trying to be helpful!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
The asians esspecially are not intergratiing correctally.

So what is the correct way to integrate? I'm only 3rd generation American. My family came over form Italy, Ireland, Poland, Chechloslovakia and Russia. The same thing you just said and many Americans say about todays immigrants to the US - were said when my acestors came over through Ellis Island. The only thing that truly bothers me about immigration in America today (which isn't issolated to immigrants) is the stupid hyphenation. People aren't just Americans - they're Italian-Americans, African-Americans, Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, etc. I of course am just American - my ancestors just happened to come over from those other countries.

There is now no difference in the birth rates of the races in britian. I can see huge upheaval in the next few years when the white man no longer becomes the majority in this country

Whites in America are between 60% and 70% of the population right now. Of course that depends on the area of the country you live in. I like NJ because of the diversity of races. The midwest to me was boring partially because everyone was white.

QT-01. Profile of General Demographic Characteristics: 2000
RACE
One race
267,839,480
...White - 212,031,850

...Black or African American - 32,147,382

...American Indian and Alaska Native - 2,119,942

...Asian - 10,418,131

......Asian Indian - 1,806,016

......Chinese (except Taiwanese) - 2,317,261

......Filipino - 1,819,444

......Japanese - 804,974

......Korean - 1,063,326

......Vietnamese - 1,082,987

......Other Asian - 1,226,700

...Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander - 436,647

......Native Hawaiian - 145,183

......Guamanian or Chamorro - 94,170

......Samoan - 76,257

......Other Pacific Islander - 109,585

Some other race - 10,685,528

Two or more races - 5,803,794

Two races including Some other race - 1,500,963

Two races excluding Some other race, and Three or more races - 4,302,831

White — A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish. (That's according to the way the census determined race for 2000)

Census 2000 New Jersey New Jersey is 72% white - but my county ([Middlesex County) is 68% white. The US is 75% white as defined by the US Census.

Of course England and Europe as a whole are very white and really haven't accepted immigration the way the US has. I can see it being a problem for England to get over the "anglocentric view" of their country. Why do you think the KKK and white supremecist groups exist in the US?

By the way - the only time theer should be a revolution in a western country is if the government stops listening to the majority of it's citizens. This of course isn't necessarily the case - since the minority may just be the most vocal. But this is basically what caused the American Revolution - England refused to listen to the colonists and we were forced to take matters into our own hands.

I also think that in some ways we already are in a world war. It just depends how you define world war. The terrorists are attacking the west all across the globe. It's only a matter of time before something serious happens in Europe.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Aeryn
- Sween

Sween....Sweeny....the proper way to say that would be "It's almost Christmas"
Its : possessive. It's: Abbreviated form of It is.
Allmost : not a word. Almost: nearly.
Christmas: proper noun, so it should be capitalized.
Okay, if that came off smartassy it wasn't intended to be. Just trying to be helpful!

does it look like i give a s***.

The proper method of intergration is not to bunch up all together. For example there is now pretty much full streets of asians. They all sit together at college. They dont socalise with the other races much at all. For example we had this lad sadral on my course he was fine in class beacuase he was the only asian one but he would not speak to us outside the class because he would be off with his fellow asains.

I will point out that america and england are 2 diffrent countries with very diffrent views on imigration. We let millions in at once and it seems to me that problems are growing amazingly fast

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Sween
We let millions in at once and it seems to me that problems are growing amazingly fast

Jerseydevil is totally right.

Enoch Powell was a racist and thankfully went to his grave without seeing his Rivers of Blood come to fruition. His ideas are completely irrelevant today. The vast majority of people here value the contribution made by all ethnic groups and don't bat an eyelid at a person's ethnicity.

Sween, what do you think about the morals of a society which pillaged the natural resources of half the world to build itself an empire, exploited their poverty by inviting them to come over here and do the crap jobs no-one else wants to do, then turns around and either criticises them for not integrating or physically attacks them, sets fire to their houses and tells them to get on a boat and go back to where they (or rather, their parents or grandparents) came from? Coz that's what Britannia did, and that's what you're doing.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Jerseydevil is totally right.

Enoch Powell was a racist and thankfully went to his grave without seeing his Rivers of Blood come to fruition. His ideas are completely irrelevant today. The vast majority of people here value the contribution made by all ethnic groups and don't bat an eyelid at a person's ethnicity.

Sween, what do you think about the morals of a society which pillaged the natural resources of half the world to build itself an empire, exploited their poverty by inviting them to come over here and do the crap jobs no-one else wants to do, then turns around and either criticises them for not integrating or physically attacks them, sets fire to their houses and tells them to get on a boat and go back to where they (or rather, their parents or grandparents) came from? Coz that's what Britannia did, and that's what you're doing.

now now young man dont get on your high horse. I would like to state that i myself am not a racist in the sligest and am friends good friends with people of ethnic extraction. I myself am not wholly white my great great grandad was from nigeria. Its no use going on about the evils of what the british empire did as well its in the past and cannot be changed. The question posed in the thread is do you think there will be another revolution.

Enoch Powel was a racist indeed but that doesnt discount what hes said. The only thing that ever came out that mans mouth that i agree with is what he said about letting too many in too fast (which has happened) he also said that they would bread very quickly which from my experience is very true.

I can however have a go at them for not intergrating. I have tried to be friend with many people of ethnic. for example i live in a place called cockermouth its a small remote place and one of my best friends is a guy called sanj hes from india. now he moved here just with his family and there is no mass concentration of asians in cockermouth and he has intergrated perfectally however in scunthorpe there is a huge amount of asians and they all stick together and warn off outsider. Another good story is my mate louise got with a lad called ravi (i think he was from bangalidesh but that doesnt matter) and anyway one day she was driving in his car and they went into the major area for them and he told her to hide because he dd not want to be seen with a white girl. Now if thats not intergrating properly i dont know what is.

I will not tell any person to leave this country if your born here and your perents are born here you are as english as the next man. So please an apoligy would be nice Dunadan as that is not what i said at all and if you think that of me i am sickend as that is not the way i am.

but there are people like that and i can see not so much racial hatred growing more racial fear. The white people of england on the whole seem in my opnion to be worrying about becomming the minority.

the question asked do you think there could be another revolution in the western world and i think there could be and if there is that will probably be the cause of it

[Lief Erikson]

I actually rather doubt that. No doubt racism is a problem in some areas, but I think that the problem is vastly less than it has been in the past. I don't think it's at all likely that the problem will grow to the scale that it would cause another revolution. Freedom and rights for the individual are very important to American lifestyle. We have made mistakes, just like every other country, but as I see it, racism as a whole has gone down in America rather drastically. Whenever rights are inhibited for a people in America, they generally speak out. We're a very vocal people when it comes to being mistreated . And I think that their case is usually upheld. Or if it isn't at the time, then later on it is.

Freedom for blacks, freedom for women, removal of segregation . . . All of these problems have been confronted and freedom always upheld. I can't see that being the cause of a major war in the future.

If there's another major war in the future, I'd say it's much more likely to be over this situation in the Middle East. There is enormous anti Western and anti American prejudice there, people being grown up to hate. More and more countries nowadays are going nuclear . . . You heard about North Korea, I suppose?

Now I'm not going to predict any major nuclear war, because I don't think that there is likely to be one. However, if there is one I'd say it's far more likely to be over the Middle East.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
I will point out that america and england are 2 diffrent countries with very diffrent views on imigration. We let millions in at once and it seems to me that problems are growing amazingly fast

I agree we are two very different countries with two very different histories when it comes to immigration. Immigration still causes a problem here though. It also depends on what part of the country immigration takes place in. In New Jersey and New York (the northeast in general) no one really cares where you've come from (one of the reasons why so many of the terrorists have chosen New Jersey as their home turf in the US). In the midwest though (minus Chicago) - the attitude is entirely different. Indiana has had a huge influx of people from Mexico and they're having a hard time accepting the change, at least in Seymour. Indianapolis of course is a little more accepting.

QT-02. Profile of Selected Social Characteristics: 2000
Foreign born - 30,466,222
Naturalized citizen - 12,232,935
Not a citizen - 18,233,287
Entered 1990 to 2000 - 13,285,452
Entered before 1990 - 17,180,770

REGION OF BIRTH OF FOREIGN BORN
Foreign-born population with region of birth reported - 30,464,003

Europe - 4,772,270
Asia - 8,364,026
Africa - 839,547
Oceania - 180,308
Latin America - 15,471,784
Northern America - 836,068

Oh and a lot of what you mentioned Sween I agree with and a lot of Americans would agree with. If you want to come to this country then you must attempt to integrate with American society.

I know someone that is from Colombia - she constantly complains about America and says things like "typical American" or "that's so American". She's been here since she was 14 and I think she's 45 now. I haven't known her very long - but if she has such a low opinion of the US then she should go back to Colombia or where ever she thinks would be better. My argument with people that come to America and then complain about it is that the door swings both ways so they should use it if they don't like it here.

Ellis Island has some cool charts, graphs and interactive displays on the history of immigration in America.

[Sween]

Thanks JD allthough what is the culture of this country now its constantally changing if you know what i mean. I think it makes for an intresting world the fact that muslims wont eat anyting from a pig cos they think they are dirty facinates me.

i just wish they would not seperate themseles off so much. It will cause a lot of problems in the long run

[Coney]

Originally posted by Sween
Thanks JD allthough what is the culture of this country now its constantally changing if you know what i mean. I think it makes for an intresting world the fact that muslims wont eat anyting from a pig cos they think they are dirty facinates me.

i just wish they would not seperate themseles off so much. It will cause a lot of problems in the long run

It seems to have always been the British way for the different cultures to seperate themselves from each other. Look at the Upper-Middle-Lower class structure wich dominated "white England" for so long .... many religions (Hindu and Muslim most strongly) call themselves a "community" and do very little to encourage others to join them.

I this a form of racism? When some minorities refuse to blend with the mainstream? In fact many seem to turn there back on the predominant British culture entirely.

I certainly do not see this leading to a revolution in the UK, for every 1 person who chooses not to integrate with societly hundreds do, especially 2nd, 3rd etc generation born in this country. It does however lead to much derision on a social level.

America particularly facinates me as, thanks to JD's post, the true native population is now very much a minority. It's interesting to see that through technology, numbers of people etc that any culture can assert itself as the predominate influence. Perhaps the subjecation of the Native Americans was that countries first rebellion?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Thanks JD allthough what is the culture of this country now its constantally changing if you know what i mean. I think it makes for an intresting world the fact that muslims wont eat anyting from a pig cos they think they are dirty facinates me.

Orthodox Jews are the same way - they don't eat shellfish or pork. I used to think it was all Jews - but Jews are like catholics - they make up the rules as they go along.

i just wish they would not seperate themseles off so much. It will cause a lot of problems in the long run

I agree - the seperation part is difficult. Generally though it takes a generation to integrate (if they actually plan on living in the country and calling it home). There are many Indians and Muslims where I live - the parents have thick accents and dress in "traditional" clothes. The children on the other hand are just like any other Americans, wear jeans, t-shirts, etc. Of course there are some parents that don't seem to want their children to integrate into American society - but it'll just be harder for their children to get jobs or get an education though.

New York has China Town, Little Ukraine, Little Italy, etc where groups of people of one heritage congregate and live. It's mostly a left over from late 1800's though. People when they first immigrate to a country go to places that are recommended by family and friends and they ended up living together. That is one of the reasons pockets of nationalities exist in cities. As they integrate with the country they've moved to - they start to move beyond their ancestral group.

Basically immigration boils down to two groups - the ones that come to a country because they want to become a citizen and become PART of the country and are proud to call it home, and those that just want the benefits such as a higher standard of living.

I'm not sure how many generations it takes for a family to finally consider a place home. I know that in my family the situation between Ireland and England was never discussed. Supposedly the part of Poland my family came from was taken over by Russia. I have no ties to my ancestoral roots or the countries they came from. Sure - I'd like to go visit them and see where my family came from - but it's not a political thing. On the other hand I know people where their ancestoral home means more to them than the home they live in - such as America. That became clear in some cases on 9/11. I also disagree with dual citizenship.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Sween
I will not tell any person to leave this country if your born here and your perents are born here you are as english as the next man. So please an apoligy would be nice Dunadan as that is not what i said at all and if you think that of me i am sickend as that is not the way i am.

Glad to hear it; sorry if I upset you but I think that the views you present are the seeds of racism.

To me, it's bleeding obvious why immigrant groups stick together. For one, they don't get racially abused. They can talk to people who understand them. They can get jobs, practice their religion, talk about what it was like back home. etc. Wouldn't you do that if you were in the same situation?

I understand what you are saying about fear; the thing is that fear and hatred go hand-in-hand, and it is a very short step from one to the other. We are all capable of racism and fear is the fuel for it. Wouldn't it be better to try to understand the humanity of a group rather than question their motives?

The reason for citing the Empire is to make you ask yourself how you would act in the same situation, and to point out that right now we benefit from the fruits of migration, past and present.

Anyway, there's no way there'd be a revolution over this. Migration has been going on for millenia and integration is a fact, it just happens at different rates in different places.

It looks like the most likely revolution in the UK is the Countryside Alliance...