What's so good about LOTR, anyway?

***IronParrot*** · 09-27-2002, 08:57 PM

Discuss.

Dunadan · 09-27-2002, 09:56 PM

Now, I wouldn't ordinarily reply to such a trite post, especially from a moderator,

but since I'm new here it's probably aimed at the likes of me.

1) Immersion (of self, not heaters). It's like taking a bath, but doesn't leave a ring..
2) Scale of the imagination
3) Blood and snotters
4) The realisation that someone created characters called Fatty Bolger, Merry, Pippin (and just about any other hobbit name, for that matter) and everyone takes their names seriously.
5) You can't beat flawed genius

But mostly because it lives in the imagination in a way that no other work of fiction does (in my experience)

cheers

D.

Lizra · 09-27-2002, 10:15 PM

The fairy tale quality in parts of it. I love the innocence of the Shire, the old forest, Gandalf when he is wizardy, the ents, I love the descriptions of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. A fairy tale world that isn't a children's story.

Cirdan · 09-27-2002, 11:48 PM

The depth and the connectedness of the character and their interactions. That and the orc helm cleaving.

BeardofPants · 09-28-2002, 12:23 AM

The languages and the cultures that he developed to such an extraordinary depth.

Kallasilya · 09-28-2002, 01:48 AM

Quote: "It's like taking a bath, but doesn't leave a ring..."

LOL, was that an intentional quote?!?!

ArwenEvenstar · 09-28-2002, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kallasilya
Quote: "It's like taking a bath, but doesn't leave a ring..."

LOL, was that an intentional quote?!?!

lol

I read it again and again because I get into the books so much then I read all the tolkien i can get my hands on

Dunadan · 09-28-2002, 09:36 AM

Yea, sorry.

Back to the original question: I've recently had an original (for me) thought about the book, having been inspired by the film to dive into various bits looking for mistakes..

It's about style. Lots of (if not all) educated literary types slag Tolkien's writing style for being pompous and constipated. Yet more ordinary punters find it totally off-putting (often making the mistake of starting the book with "Concerning Hobbits"). It's hard to argue with both from a technical point of view.

However, I've recently decided that it is just this device that makes it work for me. Because I have to learn the "grammar" of the books, I appreciate better what I find.

Tolkien is able to mould his stylistic framework like a sculptor working marble: he can achieve breathless action, pastoral idyll, high romance, all with a subtle variation in tone, but all within the same consistent framework. Again, because I have to be engaged within this framework, the imaginary vision is that much more profound. It gives a real sense of accessing a broader truth beyond the mere text. Tolkien does this better than any other writer of the genre.

(This is the mark of the true artist, and it's why I can forgive the numerous dodgy bits.)

It's also why the film is a work of art; they have not mimicked the book, but created a comprehensive milieu within which the same imaginative process can take place. Obviously, they're using visuals instead of text, and Alan Lee has to take much of the credit.

I'm sure this is neither original nor surprising, but I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Back to the gardening..

D.

Cirdan · 09-28-2002, 10:17 AM

Interesting analysis Dunadan and welcome to the 'Moot.

Maren · 09-28-2002, 05:21 PM

Well put Dunadan.

Tolkien's works portray so much in them, and every line draws back on previous history. There is so much layering there, and description. I lose myself in a longing for Middle Earth every time I read anything from the books.

Namarie, Maren

Khadrane · 09-28-2002, 06:50 PM

Basically what everyone else has said. Welcome to the Moot, Maren and Dunadan!

Arathorn · 09-28-2002, 08:34 PM

Being an arrogant, self-centered gift to the universe myself, I'd say being selected by me to read.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 09-28-2002, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arathorn
Being an arrogant, self-centered gift to the universe myself, I'd say being selected by me to read.

Yes, LotR is only good because you read it

Um...pretty much what people have been saying here....neh.

samwise of the shire · 09-28-2002, 10:21 PM

Well put Dunedan...I condradulate you on your eloquient style of writing and exellent analysis. And you have a great point there on the straight forwardness of the characters BOP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For me LOTR's greatness comes from ME itself. It's history, and languages, it's mountains and streams. A place so completely seperate from our own it's completely un comparable in that Middle Eartheans dont have the physical problems we do of pollution caused by machienes and the decay of our minds that comes from machienes and everythin', and yet the elves,hobbits,dwarves,men,ents,maia,valar, and even the orcs are human enough to make ME real in our hearts and minds.
Believeable. ME has rivers and forests, mountains and vallies,deserts and fertile plains. It has different ethnic groups and languages.
It has it's vile and disgusting evil and yet it has it's good which is pure and clean, but it is all different from our own evil and good and languages. I think the only thing that's different is the land formations and all.
In short it is a place so detailed that it imprints in our hearts and endears it's self to us because of it's differentness and yet familiarality. LOTR takes place inside that land and so creates a history that we can adopt as our own because of it's likeness to our history and yet it's people and places are totally different.
So it's a paradox. Alien and yet regognizable. Tolkien was a genius.
Cheers,
Sam

BeardofPants · 09-29-2002, 12:01 AM

Well said, Sam. You said what I was trying to say a lot more eloquently. Incidentally, I was commenting on cultures (history, etc) not characters.

cassiopeia · 09-29-2002, 02:58 AM

That is a hard question, but ever since I read the LOTR it has been my favorite book. For me, the greatness is in the descriptions of the land and cultures, it seems so real. The characters are very interesting, you could spend your whole life analysing thier motives. There is so much to delve into, from the languages, the history of the elves to whether balrogs have wings.

It is more than just a fantasy novel.

Erawyn · 09-29-2002, 10:46 AM

I love it because it takes me away from reality so much more than other books, when I read it it totally fills my head, it has a certain hugeness to it, i don't know why really, but I think because there is so much history, and the maps and all the detail that went into creating this world it makes it much more believable than other books. Gah,, incoherent.

sun-star · 09-29-2002, 12:44 PM

I love it because however much you read, you never get to the end of it. You can concentrate on the languages, or the cultures, or the geography, or the characters, or the style (I'll stop there

) and never know absolutely everything.

I'm also very interested in Tolkien as a person: his life, and the whole Inklings and Oxford thing.

emplynx · 09-29-2002, 01:59 PM

It's a well written tale of pushing forward to reach a goal.

Rána Eressëa · 09-29-2002, 02:18 PM

The fact that he created an entire world, to which a good deal of it is unknown. Much like ours.

09-27-2002, 08:57 PM	#1
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	What's so good about LOTR, anyway? Discuss. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

09-27-2002, 09:56 PM	#2
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	A newbie replies Now, I wouldn't ordinarily reply to such a trite post, especially from a moderator, but since I'm new here it's probably aimed at the likes of me. 1) Immersion (of self, not heaters). It's like taking a bath, but doesn't leave a ring.. 2) Scale of the imagination 3) Blood and snotters 4) The realisation that someone created characters called Fatty Bolger, Merry, Pippin (and just about any other hobbit name, for that matter) and everyone takes their names seriously. 5) You can't beat flawed genius But mostly because it lives in the imagination in a way that no other work of fiction does (in my experience) cheers D.

09-27-2002, 10:15 PM	#3
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	The fairy tale quality in parts of it. I love the innocence of the Shire, the old forest, Gandalf when he is wizardy, the ents, I love the descriptions of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. A fairy tale world that isn't a children's story. __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 09-27-2002 at 10:16 PM.

09-27-2002, 11:48 PM	#4
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	The depth and the connectedness of the character and their interactions. That and the orc helm cleaving. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

09-28-2002, 12:23 AM	#5
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	The languages and the cultures that he developed to such an extraordinary depth. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-28-2002, 01:48 AM	#6
Kallasilya Hobbit Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 20	Re: A newbie replies Quote: "It's like taking a bath, but doesn't leave a ring..." LOL, was that an intentional quote?!?! __________________ Nai hotuluvalve i meneltannar tirien...

09-28-2002, 09:36 AM	#8
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Appalling pun intended Yea, sorry. Back to the original question: I've recently had an original (for me) thought about the book, having been inspired by the film to dive into various bits looking for mistakes.. It's about style. Lots of (if not all) educated literary types slag Tolkien's writing style for being pompous and constipated. Yet more ordinary punters find it totally off-putting (often making the mistake of starting the book with "Concerning Hobbits"). It's hard to argue with both from a technical point of view. However, I've recently decided that it is just this device that makes it work for me. Because I have to learn the "grammar" of the books, I appreciate better what I find. Tolkien is able to mould his stylistic framework like a sculptor working marble: he can achieve breathless action, pastoral idyll, high romance, all with a subtle variation in tone, but all within the same consistent framework. Again, because I have to be engaged within this framework, the imaginary vision is that much more profound. It gives a real sense of accessing a broader truth beyond the mere text. Tolkien does this better than any other writer of the genre. (This is the mark of the true artist, and it's why I can forgive the numerous dodgy bits.) It's also why the film is a work of art; they have not mimicked the book, but created a comprehensive milieu within which the same imaginative process can take place. Obviously, they're using visuals instead of text, and Alan Lee has to take much of the credit. I'm sure this is neither original nor surprising, but I'd be interested to hear what others think. Back to the gardening.. D.

09-28-2002, 10:17 AM	#9
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Interesting analysis Dunadan and welcome to the 'Moot. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

09-28-2002, 05:21 PM	#10
Maren Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 24	Pretty much ditto to the above Well put Dunadan. Tolkien's works portray so much in them, and every line draws back on previous history. There is so much layering there, and description. I lose myself in a longing for Middle Earth every time I read anything from the books. Namarie, Maren __________________ "Aragorn and Legolas went now with Eomer in the van." -TTT III:VII Van?!?!?! Red, right?

09-28-2002, 06:50 PM	#11
Khadrane Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth (I wish) Posts: 670	Basically what everyone else has said. Welcome to the Moot, Maren and Dunadan! __________________ Few know whither their road will take them till they come to its end. -Legolas FRODO LIVES! ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

09-28-2002, 08:34 PM	#12
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Being an arrogant, self-centered gift to the universe myself, I'd say being selected by me to read. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures... Last edited by Arathorn : 09-28-2002 at 08:35 PM.

09-28-2002, 10:21 PM	#14
samwise of the shire Radically Tolkienited Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+>< Posts: 967	Well put Dunedan...I condradulate you on your eloquient style of writing and exellent analysis. And you have a great point there on the straight forwardness of the characters BOP. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For me LOTR's greatness comes from ME itself. It's history, and languages, it's mountains and streams. A place so completely seperate from our own it's completely un comparable in that Middle Eartheans dont have the physical problems we do of pollution caused by machienes and the decay of our minds that comes from machienes and everythin', and yet the elves,hobbits,dwarves,men,ents,maia,valar, and even the orcs are human enough to make ME real in our hearts and minds. Believeable. ME has rivers and forests, mountains and vallies,deserts and fertile plains. It has different ethnic groups and languages. It has it's vile and disgusting evil and yet it has it's good which is pure and clean, but it is all different from our own evil and good and languages. I think the only thing that's different is the land formations and all. In short it is a place so detailed that it imprints in our hearts and endears it's self to us because of it's differentness and yet familiarality. LOTR takes place inside that land and so creates a history that we can adopt as our own because of it's likeness to our history and yet it's people and places are totally different. So it's a paradox. Alien and yet regognizable. Tolkien was a genius. Cheers, Sam __________________ Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA...

09-29-2002, 12:01 AM	#15
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Well said, Sam. You said what I was trying to say a lot more eloquently. Incidentally, I was commenting on cultures (history, etc) not characters. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

09-29-2002, 02:58 AM	#16
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	That is a hard question, but ever since I read the LOTR it has been my favorite book. For me, the greatness is in the descriptions of the land and cultures, it seems so real. The characters are very interesting, you could spend your whole life analysing thier motives. There is so much to delve into, from the languages, the history of the elves to whether balrogs have wings. It is more than just a fantasy novel. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

09-29-2002, 10:46 AM	#17
Erawyn Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: america junior Posts: 320	I love it because it takes me away from reality so much more than other books, when I read it it totally fills my head, it has a certain hugeness to it, i don't know why really, but I think because there is so much history, and the maps and all the detail that went into creating this world it makes it much more believable than other books. Gah,, incoherent. __________________ peace never hurt anyone "Be not so bigoted to any custom as to worship it at the expense of Truth." Johann Georg von Zimmermann

09-29-2002, 12:44 PM	#18
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	I love it because however much you read, you never get to the end of it. You can concentrate on the languages, or the cultures, or the geography, or the characters, or the style (I'll stop there ) and never know absolutely everything. I'm also very interested in Tolkien as a person: his life, and the whole Inklings and Oxford thing. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. Last edited by sun-star : 09-29-2002 at 03:21 PM.

09-29-2002, 01:59 PM	#19
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	It's a well written tale of pushing forward to reach a goal.

09-29-2002, 02:18 PM	#20
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	The fact that he created an entire world, to which a good deal of it is unknown. Much like ours.

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