sauron what is he?

[zavron]

I have pondered this question for a long time. What exactly is sauron? where did he first come from?
does any one know ?

Never laugh at a live dragon!

zavron

[Sween]

Sauron is a Maiar same as Gandalf and Saurman, He is a Maiar of Aules people who was early on seduced by melkor and became his most trusted lutenant.

Sauron been a Maiar can take any form he wishes and he has been known to take the form of a wolf and a vampire bat in his past.

Maiars a lesser or demi gods are at the level bellow the Valar.

that was allmost a text book answer wasnt it

[Sister Golden Hair]

Think of the Valar and Mair as Angels and arch angels. The Valar are the greatest and each were given a charge in nature. For example: Ulmo controlled the seas and streams. Varda-stars, Manwe- the winds and birds, Mandos-doomsman and keeper of the dead, and so on. The Mair were servants to the Valar. Some were corrupted into the service of Morgoth and remained in his allegiance such as the Balrogs. His greatest servant was Sauron who was of the Mair of Aule as has been said by Sween.

[Ñólendil]

I'd like to correct your comparison, SGH. Tolkien used something slightly different: Valar as angelic-gods and Maiar as angels. The Istari were the ones Tolkien compared to arch-angels (or was it guardian angels?).

[Dunadan]

I'm with you on that one, Nolendil, especially as the Ainur (collective of Valar and Maiar) brought Tolkien's world into being by their Music.

It's hard to make comparisons, but I think that Roman/Norse/Native American style pantheons provide more similarity. In these mythologies, the gods are very closely identified with particular aspects of the world (Ulmo = Neptune), even with particular emotions (e.g. Mandos = grief).

Tolkien's Maiar certainly took a more hands-on role in the world than Christian angels (aside from the odd immaculate concept here or there).

Back to the original question: where did Sauron's spirit go when he was destroyed? Is he out in the Void playing noughts and crosses with Melkor?

cheers

D.

[tharkun27]

one of the most interesting aspects of sauron's history is the way his physical form loses it's omnipotence through the ages. From a Maia servant of Morgoth, to Annatar(Possibly misspelled) the giver of gifts-when he felt foul yet appeared fair, to the dark demonic king(like in the movie), to the lidless eye, and then who knows-maybe Celine Dion. Every time Sauron is defeated his physical power seems to diminish, while his spirit loses none of it's potency. There are also times when Sauron is only a nameless menace or an evil presence-when he is re-grouping and gathering his strength in Mirkwood. After that he makes a brief appearance as the necromancer. So, Sauron takes many forms, but he is a Maia. Probably the most powerful-more so than a balrog, or even Gandalf. Sauron's strength seems to be dispersed among all his servants and in the ring. He spread himself to thin- like K-mart.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by tharkun27
who knows-maybe Celine Dion... like K-mart.

Eureka! You've answered my question... so maybe Melkor is on the tills

[Sister Golden Hair]

Welcome to Entmoot tharkun27.

[Ñólendil]

Interesting thoughts, Dúnadan.

I think Mandos is more like Vidar of the Norse, associated with justice and doom, rather than grief (which, along with pity and mercy, is more his sister Nienna's area). I'm not very familiar with Roman or Native American myths and legends. Norse is more my area, although I wish I knew more about the Celtic world.

Reading the words of the Lord of the Rings, it doesn't seem as though Sauron was cast into the Void and I would say that he remains as a powerless spirit of malice and spite, bound to this world until the End and unable to do anything in it or about it, -- except Tolkien proves me wrong. Anyway in one quote, I don't remember the source, he says that Sauron "took the same ruinous path into the Void" as his Master of old. It's probably in Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring. I guess the One took it upon Himself to bring the spirit of Sauron out of the Universe and into the Void. Maybe it just wasn't a good idea even for his impotent spirit to be hanging around.

[Dunadan]

Yes, you're right. Nienna for grief, Mandos for that End-of-the-Universe Day-of-Judgment type thing.

I don't know much about the specific Celtic myths and deities, other than that they were quite localised, which is another similarity to the Tolkien-type mythos. Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, for example, could be Maiar who are specific to a particular place, rather than to a type of creature or aspect of nature.

The Celtic myths also include noble spirit races, similar to the concept of elves. The Irish Tuatha de Danaan were supposed to be a noble super-race of warriors, poets and musicians who ruled Ireland about 1,000BC. They were driven out by the Celts and now inhabit only the spirit world (sidhe). The Welsh have a similar spirit race: the Gwragedd Annwn.

(But perhaps "elf" works better because at least you have a chance of being able to pronounce the goddam thing.)

If you're interested, I can recommend a totally gorgeous book called "Faeries" by Brian Froud and Alan Lee (yes, the same bloke that did the set design for LOTR). Some stunning pictures, and great stories. There's a web site for it, but I can't recommend it because it plays a really gruesome version of The Doors' "People are Strange" which sounds like Rolf Harris on mandrax having a go on the stylophone. I wouldn't want to be responsible for that...

Oh my God is that the time? Work tomorrow...

D.