orcs

LuthienTinuviel · 08-09-2002, 11:21 PM

how were they made, ive heard different things and i don't know what to believe.

(i also didn't know where to put this, so forgive me if i messed up)

Urksnik the Sleek · 08-10-2002, 01:24 PM

I believe that in origin, the orcs were elves that were captured and tormented by Morgoth, until they were corrupted into orcs.
Presumably, they later bred as most races do.
As to the bit in the film where Saruman sems to be hatching them out of mud, I've no idea where that came from.

GandalfTheWhite · 08-10-2002, 02:31 PM

in the sil it says they were some of the first elves that were captured by Melkor and brought to his fortress if Utumno and mutilated and experimented and torchered till they were orcs

Erendis · 08-11-2002, 07:57 PM

In the Silmarillion, it is written:

Quote:

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison... "Of the Coming of the Elves" The Silmarillion

So, the theory of orcs originating from elves is not entirely certain.
The following is a later essay on the matter:

Quote:

The origin of Orcs is a matter of debate...
Those who believe that the Orcs were bred from some kind of Men, captured and perverted by Melkor, assert that it was impossible for the Quendi to have known of Orcs before the Separation and the departure of the Eldar. For though the time of the awakening of Men is not known, even the calculations of the loremasters that place it earliest do not assign it a date long before the Great March began, certainly not long enough before it to allow for the corruption of Men into Orcs. On the other hand, it is plain that soon after his return Morgoth has at his command a great number of these creatures, with whom he ere long began to attack the Elves. There was still less time between his return and these first assalts for the breeding of Orcs and for the transfir of their host westward.
This view of the origin of orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behavior of Orcs and Men...

Basically, I think it would be safe to assume that orcs were both corrupted elves and men.
Or I could be entirely wrong and reading thiogns wrong. If so, please correct me.

Cirdan · 08-11-2002, 09:47 PM

It would seem, just on the face of it, that if Aule could create the Noldoli, then Melkor could have done the same with the Orcs.

Does anyone have the "People of Middle Earth" from the HoME set? What does it say on the subject?

Comic Book Guy · 08-12-2002, 01:35 PM

This belongs in the Middle-Earth forum and there is already a thread that discusses this topic here.

08-09-2002, 11:21 PM	#1
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	orcs how were they made, ive heard different things and i don't know what to believe. (i also didn't know where to put this, so forgive me if i messed up) __________________

08-10-2002, 02:31 PM	#3
GandalfTheWhite Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 297	in the sil it says they were some of the first elves that were captured by Melkor and brought to his fortress if Utumno and mutilated and experimented and torchered till they were orcs __________________ "Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council." -Gandalf The Road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can, Pursuing it with eager feet, Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet. And whither then? I cannot say. "He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom." -Gandalf "A thing is about to happen which has not happened since the Elder Days: the Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Gandalf

08-11-2002, 09:47 PM	#5
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	It would seem, just on the face of it, that if Aule could create the Noldoli, then Melkor could have done the same with the Orcs. Does anyone have the "People of Middle Earth" from the HoME set? What does it say on the subject? __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

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08-10-2002, 01:24 PM	#2
Urksnik the Sleek Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: under the misty mountains Posts: 33	I believe that in origin, the orcs were elves that were captured and tormented by Morgoth, until they were corrupted into orcs. Presumably, they later bred as most races do. As to the bit in the film where Saruman sems to be hatching them out of mud, I've no idea where that came from.

08-12-2002, 01:35 PM	#6
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	This belongs in the Middle-Earth forum and there is already a thread that discusses this topic here.