Question: Timeline and the Full Moon

Elfhelm · 04-10-2002, 02:12 AM

When Frodo, Sam, and Sméagol are outside of Morannon, the moon is three days from full. The look at the gates on Rethe 5 during the day, and it is night when the narrator says "three days from full".

The night of Rethe 6 therefore the moon is two days from full.

The night of Rethe 7 therefore the moon is one day from full.

When Frodo, Sam, and Faramir are looking at the moon from Henneth Annûn, the moon is full. They leave Henneth Annûn at dawn on Rethe 8.

In TTT it says: "Far off in the west the full moon was sinking, round and white."

But the night of Rethe 8 is the real full moon, even though it is pitch black at midnight at the stone of Erech because the moon rises after midnight.

When Pippin looks out from under Gandalf's cloak on the back of Shadowfax, it is the third night since he looked in the stone, and he wonders if Frodo and Sam are OK. He looked in the Palantir on Rethe 5, so it is the night of Rethe 8.

But it says "he did not know that Frodo from far away looked on the same moon".

And no matter how you calculate it, backwards from the Dawnless Day or forward from the confrontation with Saruman, Frodo looks at the moon on the morning of the 8th and Pippin looks at it on the morning of the 9th (because it's after midnight).

But then we have another day and night before we get to Minas Tirith on the morning of the 9th, so by that reckoning, they are looking at the moon at the same tiime.

What do think? Have I found a glitch in the timeline? Is the moon still one day from full when they actually see it? Or is it only confusing me that he says three days from full when he's before Morannon, and it's really two days from full at that time?

StrawberryIcecream · 04-12-2002, 03:59 PM

Well firstly has it occured to you that the fictional place of middle earth may have a different moon to ours? I mean hobbits live there and you can actually creta intelligent rings. I'm not quite sure they would have exactly the same moon!

Elf Girl · 04-12-2002, 04:14 PM

Indeed, their moon is a flower!

StrawberryIcecream · 04-12-2002, 04:16 PM

um...ooookkkkk.

Elf Girl · 04-12-2002, 04:28 PM

It's all in the Silmarilion.

Elfhelm · 04-12-2002, 04:32 PM

That ummm wasn't my question.

I did not ask if the moon was made of cheese!

I asked if you ever counted the waking and sleeping from the various points ... oh go read the post, please.

***azalea*** · 04-12-2002, 05:34 PM

I got a little confused, but remember, sometimes the moon doesn't rise until after midnight, and sometimes it rises during the day (see Silm for explanation of that). I'll have to go back and look to see about the days and all that.

Menelvagor · 04-12-2002, 05:46 PM

One time when I was reading the part in TTT where Frodo and Sam are at the Crossroads and it recounts where all their friends are at that same time I tried to figure all that out. I think there is a discrepency in there somewhere, but time in Middle Earth just seems to stretch and bend out of my grasp.

Btw, it is the same moon as ours, but the nature of it's orbit may have shifted since then. It was a long time ago after all.

Elfhelm · 04-12-2002, 07:07 PM

I think what it boils down to is this:

Frodo and Pippin are definitely looking at the moon at the same time.

But when Frodo and Sam and Smeagol are at Morannon waiting for the sun to set, Tolkien says the moon is three nightsfrom full. But that night, after midnight, when the moon rises, it is actually two nights from full, as shown by the timeline.

So I think he might have made a mistake. It isn't easy to catch a genius goofing up something like this. In fact, I may be wrong and it is right to see three nights from full until it rises and is two nights from full.

*shrug*

But it's fun to try to figure it out.

Elvet · 04-12-2002, 07:25 PM

I'm reading HoMe - treason of Isenguard . It seems that Tolkien tried to calculate the phases of the moon so that they would appear to be accurate with the timelines. He didn't fix all of them in the rewrites. I think there is another time at the West Gate of Moria that an indescrepancy happens - it should have been a waning moon, yet they could see the writing in the moonlight.

olsonm · 04-12-2002, 07:57 PM

When it says the "moon was now three nights from the full" in 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit' dusk had just fallen, so it appears that the Professor counted Mar. 5th as the first night (so 6th=2, 7th=3). When Pippin counted "[three] nights since he had looked in the Stone" he did the same thing. He was awake for hours after looking in the Palantir on the 5th, so he apparently counted that night as the first "since" he had looked in the Stone.

Elfhelm · 04-12-2002, 08:10 PM

I can count 1,2,3,4,5 on one hand and 10,9,8,7,6 on the other, but it doesn't mean I have 11 fingers.

So if tonight is three nights from full and the first night, then tomorrow is two nights from full and the second night, and the night after is one night from full and the third night, it's still the next night that the moon is full.

But maybe it was that dusk still counts as that day, so at midnight it became two nights from full, and that could be it.

Elfhelm · 04-12-2002, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elvet
I'm reading HoMe - treason of Isenguard . It seems that Tolkien tried to calculate the phases of the moon so that they would appear to be accurate with the timelines. He didn't fix all of them in the rewrites. I think there is another time at the West Gate of Moria that an indescrepancy happens - it should have been a waning moon, yet they could see the writing in the moonlight.

Cool stuff, isn't it?

Elvet · 04-12-2002, 08:44 PM

I started with Return of the Shadow and found it somewhat confusing - all the different versions of the story. But once I got into the rhythym of the rerwites, and thanks to Christopher Tolkien's narrative, I'm really enjoying the intimate detail of the development of the books. Cool stuff indeed!I highly recommend it for anyone who loves the books.
P.S. The Letters are great, too.

olsonm · 04-13-2002, 12:34 AM

"The moon was now three nights from full" In three nights the moon would be full, not after three nights. In other words the moon would be full on the third night from "now". This was said at dusk on the 5th. That night (5th) was the first night. The next night (6th) was the second night. The next night (7th) was the third night, on which the moon would be full.

Elfhelm: This is fun! I'll keep trying.

Elfhelm · 04-15-2002, 02:16 PM

Oh no. That actually made sense!

So where I read "three nights from full" as meaning "after 3 more nights of waxing the moon will be full", you read "in three nights the moon will be full".

I'll accept that and chalk it up to my misreading.

Agburanar · 04-16-2002, 04:38 AM

I agree that makes sense. Anyone can make mistakes though, it may be a slight flaw in LoTR, it doesn't matter very much but it's intriguing) so I'll have to look in Journeys of Frodo and see what they make of it. Maybe Tolkien put it in so people could have this debate? I bet he's smiling down and laughing...

Agburanar · 04-16-2002, 04:40 AM

Half a bracket? I must be mad!

Pailan · 04-16-2002, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by olsonm
"The moon was now three nights from full" In three nights the moon would be full, not after three nights. In other words the moon would be full on the third night from "now". This was said at dusk on the 5th. That night (5th) was the first night. The next night (6th) was the second night. The next night (7th) was the third night, on which the moon would be full.

Yes, that's the answer. Much like when did the 21st millenium begin? Was it the year 2000 or 2001? Since there is no year 0 it began in 2001. So with "three nights from full" one must begin from that night.

Good question and answers.

04-10-2002, 02:12 AM	#1
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Question: Timeline and the Full Moon When Frodo, Sam, and Sméagol are outside of Morannon, the moon is three days from full. The look at the gates on Rethe 5 during the day, and it is night when the narrator says "three days from full". The night of Rethe 6 therefore the moon is two days from full. The night of Rethe 7 therefore the moon is one day from full. When Frodo, Sam, and Faramir are looking at the moon from Henneth Annûn, the moon is full. They leave Henneth Annûn at dawn on Rethe 8. In TTT it says: "Far off in the west the full moon was sinking, round and white." But the night of Rethe 8 is the real full moon, even though it is pitch black at midnight at the stone of Erech because the moon rises after midnight. When Pippin looks out from under Gandalf's cloak on the back of Shadowfax, it is the third night since he looked in the stone, and he wonders if Frodo and Sam are OK. He looked in the Palantir on Rethe 5, so it is the night of Rethe 8. But it says "he did not know that Frodo from far away looked on the same moon". And no matter how you calculate it, backwards from the Dawnless Day or forward from the confrontation with Saruman, Frodo looks at the moon on the morning of the 8th and Pippin looks at it on the morning of the 9th (because it's after midnight). But then we have another day and night before we get to Minas Tirith on the morning of the 9th, so by that reckoning, they are looking at the moon at the same tiime. What do think? Have I found a glitch in the timeline? Is the moon still one day from full when they actually see it? Or is it only confusing me that he says three days from full when he's before Morannon, and it's really two days from full at that time? __________________ cya

04-12-2002, 03:59 PM	#2
StrawberryIcecream Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In my jeans Posts: 915	Well firstly has it occured to you that the fictional place of middle earth may have a different moon to ours? I mean hobbits live there and you can actually creta intelligent rings. I'm not quite sure they would have exactly the same moon! __________________ www.foolofatook.com for all you pippin's out there.

04-12-2002, 04:14 PM	#3
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	Indeed, their moon is a flower! __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

04-12-2002, 04:16 PM	#4
StrawberryIcecream Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In my jeans Posts: 915	um...ooookkkkk. __________________ www.foolofatook.com for all you pippin's out there.

04-12-2002, 04:28 PM	#5
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	It's all in the Silmarilion. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

04-12-2002, 04:32 PM	#6
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	That ummm wasn't my question. I did not ask if the moon was made of cheese! I asked if you ever counted the waking and sleeping from the various points ... oh go read the post, please. __________________ cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 04-12-2002 at 05:06 PM.

04-12-2002, 05:34 PM	#7
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I got a little confused, but remember, sometimes the moon doesn't rise until after midnight, and sometimes it rises during the day (see Silm for explanation of that). I'll have to go back and look to see about the days and all that.

04-12-2002, 05:46 PM	#8
Menelvagor Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: lurking on the edge of conversations Posts: 924	One time when I was reading the part in TTT where Frodo and Sam are at the Crossroads and it recounts where all their friends are at that same time I tried to figure all that out. I think there is a discrepency in there somewhere, but time in Middle Earth just seems to stretch and bend out of my grasp. Btw, it is the same moon as ours, but the nature of it's orbit may have shifted since then. It was a long time ago after all.

04-12-2002, 07:07 PM	#9
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I think what it boils down to is this: Frodo and Pippin are definitely looking at the moon at the same time. But when Frodo and Sam and Smeagol are at Morannon waiting for the sun to set, Tolkien says the moon is three nightsfrom full. But that night, after midnight, when the moon rises, it is actually two nights from full, as shown by the timeline. So I think he might have made a mistake. It isn't easy to catch a genius goofing up something like this. In fact, I may be wrong and it is right to see three nights from full until it rises and is two nights from full. shrug But it's fun to try to figure it out. __________________ cya

04-12-2002, 07:25 PM	#10
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	I'm reading HoMe - treason of Isenguard . It seems that Tolkien tried to calculate the phases of the moon so that they would appear to be accurate with the timelines. He didn't fix all of them in the rewrites. I think there is another time at the West Gate of Moria that an indescrepancy happens - it should have been a waning moon, yet they could see the writing in the moonlight. __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

04-12-2002, 07:57 PM	#11
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	How about this? When it says the "moon was now three nights from the full" in 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit' dusk had just fallen, so it appears that the Professor counted Mar. 5th as the first night (so 6th=2, 7th=3). When Pippin counted "[three] nights since he had looked in the Stone" he did the same thing. He was awake for hours after looking in the Palantir on the 5th, so he apparently counted that night as the first "since" he had looked in the Stone. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

04-12-2002, 08:10 PM	#12
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I can count 1,2,3,4,5 on one hand and 10,9,8,7,6 on the other, but it doesn't mean I have 11 fingers. So if tonight is three nights from full and the first night, then tomorrow is two nights from full and the second night, and the night after is one night from full and the third night, it's still the next night that the moon is full. But maybe it was that dusk still counts as that day, so at midnight it became two nights from full, and that could be it. __________________ cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 04-12-2002 at 08:11 PM.

04-12-2002, 08:44 PM	#14
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	I started with Return of the Shadow and found it somewhat confusing - all the different versions of the story. But once I got into the rhythym of the rerwites, and thanks to Christopher Tolkien's narrative, I'm really enjoying the intimate detail of the development of the books. Cool stuff indeed!I highly recommend it for anyone who loves the books. P.S. The Letters are great, too. __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

04-13-2002, 12:34 AM	#15
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	"The moon was now three nights from full" In three nights the moon would be full, not after three nights. In other words the moon would be full on the third night from "now". This was said at dusk on the 5th. That night (5th) was the first night. The next night (6th) was the second night. The next night (7th) was the third night, on which the moon would be full. Elfhelm: This is fun! I'll keep trying. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

04-15-2002, 02:16 PM	#16
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Oh no. That actually made sense! So where I read "three nights from full" as meaning "after 3 more nights of waxing the moon will be full", you read "in three nights the moon will be full". I'll accept that and chalk it up to my misreading. __________________ cya

04-16-2002, 04:38 AM	#17
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	I agree that makes sense. Anyone can make mistakes though, it may be a slight flaw in LoTR, it doesn't matter very much but it's intriguing) so I'll have to look in Journeys of Frodo and see what they make of it. Maybe Tolkien put it in so people could have this debate? I bet he's smiling down and laughing... __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!

04-16-2002, 04:40 AM	#18
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	Half a bracket? I must be mad! __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!