It CAN'T Be Done? Or Can It?

Pippin Skywalker · 03-13-2002, 11:27 PM

Stanley Kubrick said that Lord of the Rings was "Unfilmable." So many unanimously say of the Silmarillion. But my arguement is this: If Stanley Kubrick one of Hollywood's most famous and remembered Directors said LOTR could not be made,then how do you explain the recent three hour magnum opus of magnificence now on screens around the world, with 13 Oscar Nominations? My word to you: Don't Trust The Critics no matter how influential,experianced or important. It IS possible to make a film...it will just take thought,courage and good sense. As a up and coming filmaker I believe it can be done. I would like to do it myself....hopefully....

It might have to be in two movies...maybe three...

Probably most will dissagree...but that is common when something hasn't been done. Awake and open now the silent gates of your hearts that song s and tales of great things may come in!

Adieu For Now.

Nibs · 03-14-2002, 12:15 AM

Some one said it couldn't be done? Why would he say that? Maybe he was implying a single film. Even then...

Any way, there was one thread discussing the filming of the Silmarillion. The outcome was (in my mind, any way): it could be done, just in many installments. The Silmarillion contains many, many stories, with little dialogue. That would have to be filled in. It would take a lot of time and loads of talent, but it's quite feasible. It would make a great film (or twenty or so).

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-14-2002, 12:23 AM

When Stanley Kubrick made that remark, it probably was more of an impossibility to make a good movie of LotRs. He has been dead for awhile, and he was a great director, so he was very realistic in his thinking at that point in time. A movie of the Silmarillion? I had even my doubts about the P.J. movie and how true to form it could stay. I must admit that considering the complexity of the story, it was well done. For me though, the Sil. would be tough. It's detailed in a different way than LotRs, but it is not a question of impossibility for the Sil, but loyalty to it, and detailing the compexity of a much greater task. The most I think you could hope for with the Sil. is to bring a great story or two alive from it. I don't think a film could ever do the entire book justice, or have the ability to stay true to form. But I say that for now, like Stanley Kubrick said then.

Dwarven Sen · 03-14-2002, 06:43 AM

I've always prefered books to films and I think that the LotR film was good but Sil is much much more complex and being a film would wreck the whole thing : the emotion the hatred the power the whole timeline of life death construction destruction turmoil and calm it would all fade

Elf Girl · 03-14-2002, 07:58 AM

I agree about the film wrecking the whole thing. And they wouldn't make it, they're worried they'll get sued for religious reasons.

Dwarven Sen · 03-14-2002, 08:38 AM

What religious reasons I mean i worship ulmo but why exactly actually arrrggggggghhhhh i am caught between worshipping ulmo and yoda

Cirdan · 03-14-2002, 10:03 AM

Kubrick was a bit of a purist. He wouldn't allow a stereo re mastering of the mono track for 2001 on the DVD! He also didn't have the computer power to throw together a balrog. I think the the Silmarillion "could" be done, but it would have to be serialized and I doubt it would draw the big production bucks that LotR did. But, if they make huge piles of cash and have the assembled artists, liguists, etc from LotR then why not try. I think they would do the hobbit first. After 4 films the studio and movie goers would probably burn out, but then Stae Wars is still going string and the plot lines are much weaker.

Anyway, I agree with the comment about preferring the books. The movies are nice eye candy but nothing can substitute for a good read.

bropous · 03-14-2002, 01:56 PM

Actually, after the final release of "Return of the King", I hope Jackson actually tackles a three-hour length "The Hobbit".

As for filming "The Silmarillion", I have great respect for the recently deceased (I think it was last year or the year before, Sister Golden Hair) Stanley Kubrick, but on this issue I simply think he was wrong. I do not know if audiences could be drawn in for a serialized Silmarillion, but some of the stories COULD stand on their own as films (the story of Beren and Luthien comes to mind). However, although not impossible a task, the filming of Sil would be herculean beyond measure. Talk about folks steamed at Bombadil and Glorfindel not being in LotR: Can you imagine a Silmarillion film leaving out Cirdan Shipwright or Finrod or, clutch the pearls, Glorfindel AGAIN???

To do justice, the book would have to be broken up into separate films, and I just don't think a studio would go for that. But then again, for the longest time, "Lord of the Rings" was considered "unfilmable" in live-action as well.

markedel · 03-14-2002, 08:13 PM

Actually many tolkien stories make excellent short films, but not features, Aldarion and Erendis, Turin, Tuor etc.

Lelondul · 03-14-2002, 09:00 PM

Cirdan, I think the reason Star Wars is still going is because it has a simple storyline. By number of names alone, any story out of the Sill would be grossly overwhelming to a public audience in film-form. That is, unless the dreaded 'dumbing-down for mass audiences' rears its ugly head and in a worse manner than that of the LotR version of which we all already complain about.

No doubt it would be cool to see with what special effects can do now. (Imagine Ulmo rising out of the sea to cousel Tour in Vinyamar, or the fall of Gondolin, or even Beleg and Turin defending the northern Borders of Doriath side-by-side! damn that would be sweet!)

I think maybe Beren and Luthien tale has enough of a basic love-story theme to potentially work, but then you run the risk of ruining the love story that the Professor himself held very dear to his heart (his headstone has by his request, 'Beren' under his name and "Luthien" under his wife Edith's). Who would be brave enough to try that?

Oh and not to take too much away from Star Wars, there was a twenty-year break between the first three and last three films

Cirdan · 03-14-2002, 10:03 PM

Lelondul, I agree with your points. There would end up being the endless narrator interupting to explain all the history needed just to get through it. Turin sound like a good candidate. They would have some need to link through plot lines to the LotR to retain movie only fans. Something with the Fall of the Numenoreans and the creation of the rings. It's still a bit of a stretch. There aren't the happy endings that most movie goers demand. On a tangent to the religious note, much of the bible has been put to film, but then it's been read a bit more than the Silmarillion.
Kubrick recently, right before "Eyes Wide Shut" hit the theaters. His quote was, I assume from much earlier in his career, when the books came out.

Pippin Skywalker · 03-14-2002, 11:26 PM

Well! A lot of good insightful discussion has had it's being since I've been away! Another thing you may want to consider as far as a studio not going for breaking the Silmarillion into "part" is this: Remember George Lucas has his own film company Lucasfilm. He has this so he can have complete freedom over his films, how they are made and when they come out. Also he earned a lot of money from the classic trilogy and became rich enough do a lot of the financial stuff himself. Independance could be a key factor into a director making a film version of the Sil. I am not saying Mr. Lucas should do this; I merely mean to say that someone like him in his position may be able to pull it off.

Ñólendil · 03-15-2002, 12:16 AM

Hey Le, you should come here more often.

The biggest problem with "adapting The Silmarillion" is that The Quenta Silmarillion itself (not even to speak of the Akallabeth and Rings of Power) is supposed to a collection of many different stories, put together and shortened. The Ainulindale and Of the Beginning of Days with info. from the Valaquenta would make a long movie. Of Túrin Turambar using info. from the Narn-I-Chîn-Húrin could easily fill up three hours in a movie theatre. Same goes for Of Beren and Lúthien and the Lay of Leithian. If you're going to film The Silmarillion and do it right you're going to make an unbelievable gamble and film 14 movies. It can be done, but it won't.

Zaents doesn't have the license anyway.

MasterMothra · 03-15-2002, 01:37 PM

it would be interesting to see the manifestation of the characters. i was rather impressed with the way sauron "looked" in the film. i could only imagine how morgoth or feanor would be portrayed, and what actor(s) would be chosen to do so.
i think that the hobbit would be the most logical choice to follow rotk. of course all of this depends on the revenue generated from the previous. i also tend to believe the "executives" will monitor how succesful the harry potter movies are. if harry potter can maintain profitable numbers over a span of 4-5 movies, then i think making the hobbit or sil could very well be a possibility. depends on how well the "fantasy" genre can maintain moviegoers attention.

be well

Elvellon · 03-18-2002, 11:16 AM

It is true it would be difficult to film the Silmarillion. But, as it has been said before, certain of its stories could be perfectly adapted to cinema. I think it all will depend if the remaining films of the LotR are successful or not (I agree that Harry Potter may be taken into account in this, but I can see more Middle Earth movies being made, even if Harry Potter series are unsuccessful, if market studies show that there is an interest in more Tolkien related movies).
If the LotR movies are successful , I see the movie industry looking for other Tolkien books to adapt to the cinema. The Hobbit would be the first choice, but what then? The Tale of Beren and Luthien, the Tale of the Children of Hurin or the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin would make excellent movies. Personally. I see the possibility of this being done.

Finrod Felagund · 03-18-2002, 02:55 PM

The Lord of the Rings spans a period of a few years at least after Frodo's flight. The Silmarillion spans a period of thousands of years and contains little dialogue. Now a specific part (eg. the Narn i Hurin) would make great movies.
A full Silmarillion movie would be cool but next to impossible.
And very, very, very, very, very, long.

Ahab · 03-28-2002, 07:23 PM

Who does currently hold the license to the Silmarillion and the other books?

Ñólendil · 03-28-2002, 07:54 PM

Ahab! A thousand welcomes from yours truly, Ranadwelt. I'm glad you made the trip.

The Tolkien Estate has the licenses required to all of Tolkien's writings, except The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

Wayfarer · 03-28-2002, 09:48 PM

AHAB???

Well...Riddle me that! Nice to see you, Spammer!

?????

TinuvielChild · 04-01-2002, 09:43 PM

hey Cirdan, i like your new avatar!!

<-----post # 444! (and i just passed 400 last night!)

03-13-2002, 11:27 PM	#1
Pippin Skywalker Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 93	It CAN'T Be Done? Or Can It? Stanley Kubrick said that Lord of the Rings was "Unfilmable." So many unanimously say of the Silmarillion. But my arguement is this: If Stanley Kubrick one of Hollywood's most famous and remembered Directors said LOTR could not be made,then how do you explain the recent three hour magnum opus of magnificence now on screens around the world, with 13 Oscar Nominations? My word to you: Don't Trust The Critics no matter how influential,experianced or important. It IS possible to make a film...it will just take thought,courage and good sense. As a up and coming filmaker I believe it can be done. I would like to do it myself....hopefully.... It might have to be in two movies...maybe three... Probably most will dissagree...but that is common when something hasn't been done. Awake and open now the silent gates of your hearts that song s and tales of great things may come in! Adieu For Now. __________________ Gimli: I'm Short! I'm Bad! I'm King of Khazaad! Note: That was not an actual quote from J.R.R. Tolkien's novel!

03-14-2002, 12:15 AM	#2
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	Some one said it couldn't be done? Why would he say that? Maybe he was implying a single film. Even then... Any way, there was one thread discussing the filming of the Silmarillion. The outcome was (in my mind, any way): it could be done, just in many installments. The Silmarillion contains many, many stories, with little dialogue. That would have to be filled in. It would take a lot of time and loads of talent, but it's quite feasible. It would make a great film (or twenty or so). __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

03-14-2002, 06:43 AM	#4
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	I've always prefered books to films and I think that the LotR film was good but Sil is much much more complex and being a film would wreck the whole thing : the emotion the hatred the power the whole timeline of life death construction destruction turmoil and calm it would all fade __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-14-2002, 07:58 AM	#5
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	I agree about the film wrecking the whole thing. And they wouldn't make it, they're worried they'll get sued for religious reasons. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

03-14-2002, 08:38 AM	#6
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	What religious reasons I mean i worship ulmo but why exactly actually arrrggggggghhhhh i am caught between worshipping ulmo and yoda __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

03-14-2002, 12:23 AM	#3
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	When Stanley Kubrick made that remark, it probably was more of an impossibility to make a good movie of LotRs. He has been dead for awhile, and he was a great director, so he was very realistic in his thinking at that point in time. A movie of the Silmarillion? I had even my doubts about the P.J. movie and how true to form it could stay. I must admit that considering the complexity of the story, it was well done. For me though, the Sil. would be tough. It's detailed in a different way than LotRs, but it is not a question of impossibility for the Sil, but loyalty to it, and detailing the compexity of a much greater task. The most I think you could hope for with the Sil. is to bring a great story or two alive from it. I don't think a film could ever do the entire book justice, or have the ability to stay true to form. But I say that for now, like Stanley Kubrick said then.

03-14-2002, 10:03 AM	#7
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Kubrick was a bit of a purist. He wouldn't allow a stereo re mastering of the mono track for 2001 on the DVD! He also didn't have the computer power to throw together a balrog. I think the the Silmarillion "could" be done, but it would have to be serialized and I doubt it would draw the big production bucks that LotR did. But, if they make huge piles of cash and have the assembled artists, liguists, etc from LotR then why not try. I think they would do the hobbit first. After 4 films the studio and movie goers would probably burn out, but then Stae Wars is still going string and the plot lines are much weaker. Anyway, I agree with the comment about preferring the books. The movies are nice eye candy but nothing can substitute for a good read. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

03-14-2002, 01:56 PM	#8
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Actually, after the final release of "Return of the King", I hope Jackson actually tackles a three-hour length "The Hobbit". As for filming "The Silmarillion", I have great respect for the recently deceased (I think it was last year or the year before, Sister Golden Hair) Stanley Kubrick, but on this issue I simply think he was wrong. I do not know if audiences could be drawn in for a serialized Silmarillion, but some of the stories COULD stand on their own as films (the story of Beren and Luthien comes to mind). However, although not impossible a task, the filming of Sil would be herculean beyond measure. Talk about folks steamed at Bombadil and Glorfindel not being in LotR: Can you imagine a Silmarillion film leaving out Cirdan Shipwright or Finrod or, clutch the pearls, Glorfindel AGAIN??? To do justice, the book would have to be broken up into separate films, and I just don't think a studio would go for that. But then again, for the longest time, "Lord of the Rings" was considered "unfilmable" in live-action as well. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

03-14-2002, 08:13 PM	#9
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Actually many tolkien stories make excellent short films, but not features, Aldarion and Erendis, Turin, Tuor etc. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-14-2002, 09:00 PM	#10
Lelondul Swan-buggerer Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The rainy, grey north Posts: 69	Cirdan, I think the reason Star Wars is still going is because it has a simple storyline. By number of names alone, any story out of the Sill would be grossly overwhelming to a public audience in film-form. That is, unless the dreaded 'dumbing-down for mass audiences' rears its ugly head and in a worse manner than that of the LotR version of which we all already complain about. No doubt it would be cool to see with what special effects can do now. (Imagine Ulmo rising out of the sea to cousel Tour in Vinyamar, or the fall of Gondolin, or even Beleg and Turin defending the northern Borders of Doriath side-by-side! damn that would be sweet!) I think maybe Beren and Luthien tale has enough of a basic love-story theme to potentially work, but then you run the risk of ruining the love story that the Professor himself held very dear to his heart (his headstone has by his request, 'Beren' under his name and "Luthien" under his wife Edith's). Who would be brave enough to try that? Oh and not to take too much away from Star Wars, there was a twenty-year break between the first three and last three films __________________ - Lelond, your friendly neighborhood Adan

03-14-2002, 10:03 PM	#11
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Lelondul, I agree with your points. There would end up being the endless narrator interupting to explain all the history needed just to get through it. Turin sound like a good candidate. They would have some need to link through plot lines to the LotR to retain movie only fans. Something with the Fall of the Numenoreans and the creation of the rings. It's still a bit of a stretch. There aren't the happy endings that most movie goers demand. On a tangent to the religious note, much of the bible has been put to film, but then it's been read a bit more than the Silmarillion. Kubrick recently, right before "Eyes Wide Shut" hit the theaters. His quote was, I assume from much earlier in his career, when the books came out. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

03-14-2002, 11:26 PM	#12
Pippin Skywalker Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 93	Well! A lot of good insightful discussion has had it's being since I've been away! Another thing you may want to consider as far as a studio not going for breaking the Silmarillion into "part" is this: Remember George Lucas has his own film company Lucasfilm. He has this so he can have complete freedom over his films, how they are made and when they come out. Also he earned a lot of money from the classic trilogy and became rich enough do a lot of the financial stuff himself. Independance could be a key factor into a director making a film version of the Sil. I am not saying Mr. Lucas should do this; I merely mean to say that someone like him in his position may be able to pull it off. __________________ Gimli: I'm Short! I'm Bad! I'm King of Khazaad! Note: That was not an actual quote from J.R.R. Tolkien's novel!

03-15-2002, 12:16 AM	#13
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Hey Le, you should come here more often. The biggest problem with "adapting The Silmarillion" is that The Quenta Silmarillion itself (not even to speak of the Akallabeth and Rings of Power) is supposed to a collection of many different stories, put together and shortened. The Ainulindale and Of the Beginning of Days with info. from the Valaquenta would make a long movie. Of Túrin Turambar using info. from the Narn-I-Chîn-Húrin could easily fill up three hours in a movie theatre. Same goes for Of Beren and Lúthien and the Lay of Leithian. If you're going to film The Silmarillion and do it right you're going to make an unbelievable gamble and film 14 movies. It can be done, but it won't. Zaents doesn't have the license anyway. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-15-2002, 01:37 PM	#14
MasterMothra Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: utumno and angband Posts: 241	it would be interesting to see the manifestation of the characters. i was rather impressed with the way sauron "looked" in the film. i could only imagine how morgoth or feanor would be portrayed, and what actor(s) would be chosen to do so. i think that the hobbit would be the most logical choice to follow rotk. of course all of this depends on the revenue generated from the previous. i also tend to believe the "executives" will monitor how succesful the harry potter movies are. if harry potter can maintain profitable numbers over a span of 4-5 movies, then i think making the hobbit or sil could very well be a possibility. depends on how well the "fantasy" genre can maintain moviegoers attention. be well __________________ "........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon.

03-18-2002, 11:16 AM	#15
Elvellon Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Lindon Posts: 637	It is true it would be difficult to film the Silmarillion. But, as it has been said before, certain of its stories could be perfectly adapted to cinema. I think it all will depend if the remaining films of the LotR are successful or not (I agree that Harry Potter may be taken into account in this, but I can see more Middle Earth movies being made, even if Harry Potter series are unsuccessful, if market studies show that there is an interest in more Tolkien related movies). If the LotR movies are successful , I see the movie industry looking for other Tolkien books to adapt to the cinema. The Hobbit would be the first choice, but what then? The Tale of Beren and Luthien, the Tale of the Children of Hurin or the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin would make excellent movies. Personally. I see the possibility of this being done. __________________ **************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion

03-18-2002, 02:55 PM	#16
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	The Lord of the Rings spans a period of a few years at least after Frodo's flight. The Silmarillion spans a period of thousands of years and contains little dialogue. Now a specific part (eg. the Narn i Hurin) would make great movies. A full Silmarillion movie would be cool but next to impossible. And very, very, very, very, very, long. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

03-28-2002, 07:23 PM	#17
Ahab Sapling Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 4	Who does currently hold the license to the Silmarillion and the other books?

03-28-2002, 07:54 PM	#18
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Ahab! A thousand welcomes from yours truly, Ranadwelt. I'm glad you made the trip. The Tolkien Estate has the licenses required to all of Tolkien's writings, except The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-28-2002, 09:48 PM	#19
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	AHAB??? Well...Riddle me that! Nice to see you, Spammer! ????? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

04-01-2002, 09:43 PM	#20
TinuvielChild Padawan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Barony of Carolingia Posts: 2,176	hey Cirdan, i like your new avatar!! <-----post # 444! (and i just passed 400 last night!) __________________ There are only four questions of value in life: What is sacred? Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for? What is worth dying for? The answer to each is the same: ONLY LOVE. Dance as though nobody's watching. Sing as though nobody's listening. Dream as though you'll live forever. Live as though you'll die tomorrow. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO and proud! FRODO LIVES!!!!!