"Flame of Udun"?

bropous · 03-07-2002, 12:56 PM

Hopefully this is in the right forum, as it pertains both to the books and to the film.

Okay. At the bridge of Khazad-Dum, Gandalf calls the balrog "Flame of Udun". Maybe should have added, "overgrown, overambitious charcoal briquette" to it. However, Udun is the valley right behind the Morannon in Mordor.

Now, the Balrogs were servants of Morgoth, and the Balrog in Moria wasn't exactly in outright allegiance with Sauron. So, since there is no real direct link with Mordor and Balrogs, why call the Balrog "Flame of Udun"?

Curious what you folks think. Sorry if this has been covered in another thread already.

The White Rider · 03-07-2002, 01:06 PM

This is only a suggestion...
Balrogs were Maia spirits of fire.
They got their fir from the Imperishible Flame.
I'm not sure, but isn't Udun another name for the Imperishible Flame

bropous · 03-07-2002, 01:34 PM

no, white rider, the "unperishable flame" is the flame of Anor. Udun is the valley behind the Morannon in Mordor.

BTW, welcome to the Moot!

Pailan · 03-07-2002, 02:10 PM

I think that Udun is an elvish word for Morgoth's first middle earth digs. Utumno. I read this somewhere but I can't locate the source. I want to say it is Sindarin word but I could be mistaken.

And if this is so, it makes perfect sense that Gandalf would call the balrog by such a name. I get confused with the whole Thangordrim/Utumno thing. Good thing the Valar wiped it off the map!

Any lore masters out there to set this mater straight?

Elvet · 03-07-2002, 02:17 PM

I thought that all the balrogs originated in Angband and those that were not killed in the Great Battle fled "(to) caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth". Would Gandalf have been aware of any others, as well as the one in Moria?

Pailan · 03-07-2002, 02:23 PM

Looking in the LotR Index of Places, it lists Udun thus:

Udun, hell: flame of Udun, 322; a region of Mordor, 907, 910.

Some help but not lots.

Comic Book Guy · 03-07-2002, 03:25 PM

Udûn is the Grey-Elven word for Utumno, which was the Stronghold of Melkor in the first age. I don't know why Udûn was named Udûn for, I guess it may be a homage to Melkor, like Grond was.

Elf Girl · 03-07-2002, 06:13 PM

I always thought that our balrog was the last one?

markedel · 03-07-2002, 07:10 PM

Udun in Mordor is almost certainly homage to Morgoth. The Balrog having served in Udun is thus the flame of Ududn.

More interesting:

The secret flame of Anor?

What is it

The ring

or perhaps Eru himself.

bropous · 03-07-2002, 08:23 PM

Hmmm. Udun means Hell? Pailan, from what edition does that Index entry come? I'm not sure that it's very accurate. There IS no concept of hell in Lord of the Rings, so how could Udun mean hell?

Welcome to the Moot, Elvet. I'm not all that sure that Gandalf knew that Durin's Bane was actually a balrog til the Smoking Beast showed up right before the bridge at Khazad-Dum.

Good point, CBG, and the "homage to Morgoth" naming Grond the ram after Grond the hammer got right past me. Good call. I wonder if Sauron had a picture of Morgoth all nicely framed sitting on his nightstand.....

"To Sauron, worst lieutenant a guy could have ....I really mean it.....don't ever change. Morgie."

markedel · 03-07-2002, 09:18 PM

Sauron was a god to his slaves, though it appears he is more the high priest as it were-turning people to worship Melkor. See the Akallebeth for my reasoning.

Ñólendil · 03-08-2002, 01:12 AM

Bropous, there does not appear to be any traditional Christian idea of Hell in Tolkien's world, you're right,* but Angand is called "Hell" several times in Tolkien's writings, including the Silmarillion as published. It believe it says "(Hell)" below "Udûn" on the LotR map, though. The Balrog may very well be called a Demon from Hell, but certainly not in the traditional sense.

I guess the reference is to Utumno, rather than the Udûn of Mordor.

*I came across something interesting on the subject a while ago. It is in the History of Middle-earth, Volume X, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, The 'Tale of Adanel'. It is the First Age Edain's legend concerning the Fall of Man. When the Men betray the Voice (the One) and begin worshipping Morgoth, there is this passage:

Quote:

The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'

Even the Fallen would not (and could not) be touched by the Satanic Melkor after death, and would meet Ilúvatar. Tolkien's Hell appears to be on Earth.

Pailan · 03-08-2002, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
Hmmm. Udun means Hell? Pailan, from what edition does that Index entry come? I'm not sure that it's very accurate. There IS no concept of hell in Lord of the Rings, so how could Udun mean hell?

Well, I copied it exactly as it is printed in the Index, itals and page references.... This version of RotK is the large green paper back with the cover illustration by Alan Lee. The title page says renewed 1994 and I guess it is the tenth printing. It also says this:

Quote:

The text for this edition of RotK contains all corrections and revisions that have been made since the original publication.

I too was kinda confused to see the word "hell" included in the Index. I guess the italics indicate that it is not the Biblical concept of hell but rather hell-like. Oh hell, what do I know?

Ñólendil · 03-08-2002, 11:05 AM

"The secret flame of Anor?"

I made a long post about this somewhat recently. I'll see if I can find it. Of course I don't know what it is, but I have my theories.

... Here it is. I just had to search for "Flame of Anor" in order to find it. Click here.

bropous · 03-08-2002, 11:55 AM

Yeah, Pailan, now it confuses me too. Not only the fact that "hell" appears after Udun in the Index of that edition, but also Nolendil's indication that "hell" also occurs on the map. I guess I missed the hell references. I could have sworn it wasn't mentioned.

Good thorough post on the Flame of Anor, Nolendil!

Pailan · 03-08-2002, 12:00 PM

I was over at The Encyclopedia of Arda, and I snagged this entry from them concerning Udun:

Quote:

The Sindarin name of Utumno, the ancient fortress of Melkor in the far north of the World.

But they do not give their source for this statement. I am still looking for a better source.

Comic Book Guy · 03-08-2002, 03:13 PM

The Index to the Silmarillion gives this entry

Quote:

Utumno The first great stronghold of Melkor, in the North of Middle-Earth, destroyed by the Valar

markedel · 03-08-2002, 03:25 PM

I recall reading hell in refrence to Utumno

I really need to buy Morgoth's ring...

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-08-2002, 11:16 PM

OK, Foster gives three different definitions and 2 translations for Udun. (From the Complete Guide to Middle-earth)

Udun- (Sindarin-un-west? Hell?) The source of the dark flame of the Balrogs, possibly Utumno, possibly the darkness of the Spirit of Melkor.

Udun-(Sindarin-not-valley?) Utumno

Udun- The circular plain in Mordor between Isenmouthe and Cirith Gorgor.

Then we have:

The Flame of Anor- The power wielded by Gandalf, possibly an allusion to the white light of the Sun as a symbol of the Secret Fire.

The Flame of Udun- The fire of the Balrog.

Ñólendil · 03-09-2002, 04:21 PM

Thank you very much bropous. I really do feel appreciated here.

Pailan, I don't know where to find the linguistic relationship between Udûn and Utumno, but you can see that they are similar just by looking at them. All the Elvish languages find their origin in one Elvish language called by Tolkien Primitive Quendian. So words tend to be related. The Nandorin word for "Utumno" was "Utum", which is even closer to Udûn. In the Nandorin section of the Ardalambion, respected linguist Helgeh Fauskanger writes:

Quote:

Utum "Utumno", Melkor's first stronghold. The primitive form is given as Utubnu, derived from a stem TUB (LR:394), not defined as such but yielding a series of words that suggest a basic meaning "deep, lowlying". The prefixing of the stem-vowel is a common feature in strengthened primitive forms; the ending -nu seems to be used nowhere else, but Utubnu is clearly to be understood as *"very low [place]". The original cluster bn comes out as m in Nandorin; cf. Quenya Utumno. The development is evidently meant to be Utubnu > *Utumnu > *Utumn > Utum.

I've been looking around at M-e maps online, and none of them have "Hell" by "Udûn". ... And I just checked my Millenium Edition map. I apologize, it doesn't say "Hell" there either. I suspect I saw it in one of Karen Wynn Fonstad's map. I trust that Udûn is the Sindarin equivalent of Utumno, however. At the moment I am only capable of producing proof that Angband was called Hell, not specifically Utumno.

SGH, Robert Foster is looked down upon by linguists. He wasn't one and he's outdated, that's his problem. But Helgeh Fauskanger says Primitive Quendian Utubno means "very low place".

03-07-2002, 12:56 PM	#1
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	"Flame of Udun"? Hopefully this is in the right forum, as it pertains both to the books and to the film. Okay. At the bridge of Khazad-Dum, Gandalf calls the balrog "Flame of Udun". Maybe should have added, "overgrown, overambitious charcoal briquette" to it. However, Udun is the valley right behind the Morannon in Mordor. Now, the Balrogs were servants of Morgoth, and the Balrog in Moria wasn't exactly in outright allegiance with Sauron. So, since there is no real direct link with Mordor and Balrogs, why call the Balrog "Flame of Udun"? Curious what you folks think. Sorry if this has been covered in another thread already. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

03-07-2002, 01:06 PM	#2
The White Rider Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Somewhere in the name of Arda Posts: 23	This is only a suggestion... Balrogs were Maia spirits of fire. They got their fir from the Imperishible Flame. I'm not sure, but isn't Udun another name for the Imperishible Flame __________________ Guiding everyone I can see... Straight to doom except for me.

03-07-2002, 01:34 PM	#3
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	no, white rider, the "unperishable flame" is the flame of Anor. Udun is the valley behind the Morannon in Mordor. BTW, welcome to the Moot! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

03-07-2002, 02:10 PM	#4
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	I think that Udun is an elvish word for Morgoth's first middle earth digs. Utumno. I read this somewhere but I can't locate the source. I want to say it is Sindarin word but I could be mistaken. And if this is so, it makes perfect sense that Gandalf would call the balrog by such a name. I get confused with the whole Thangordrim/Utumno thing. Good thing the Valar wiped it off the map! Any lore masters out there to set this mater straight? __________________ "Holy Entmoot, Batman!" "Who knows, Robin? This strange mixing of minds may be the greatest single sevice ever performed for humanity! Let's go, but, inconspicuosly, through the window. We'll use our Batropes. Our job is finished." Oh, btw, Frodo lives.

03-07-2002, 02:17 PM	#5
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	I thought that all the balrogs originated in Angband and those that were not killed in the Great Battle fled "(to) caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth". Would Gandalf have been aware of any others, as well as the one in Moria? __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

03-07-2002, 02:23 PM	#6
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	Looking in the LotR Index of Places, it lists Udun thus: Udun, hell: flame of Udun, 322; a region of Mordor, 907, 910. Some help but not lots. __________________ "Holy Entmoot, Batman!" "Who knows, Robin? This strange mixing of minds may be the greatest single sevice ever performed for humanity! Let's go, but, inconspicuosly, through the window. We'll use our Batropes. Our job is finished." Oh, btw, Frodo lives.

03-07-2002, 03:25 PM	#7
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	Udûn is the Grey-Elven word for Utumno, which was the Stronghold of Melkor in the first age. I don't know why Udûn was named Udûn for, I guess it may be a homage to Melkor, like Grond was.

03-07-2002, 06:13 PM	#8
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	I always thought that our balrog was the last one? __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

03-07-2002, 07:10 PM	#9
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Udun in Mordor is almost certainly homage to Morgoth. The Balrog having served in Udun is thus the flame of Ududn. More interesting: The secret flame of Anor? What is it The ring or perhaps Eru himself. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-07-2002, 08:23 PM	#10
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Hmmm. Udun means Hell? Pailan, from what edition does that Index entry come? I'm not sure that it's very accurate. There IS no concept of hell in Lord of the Rings, so how could Udun mean hell? Welcome to the Moot, Elvet. I'm not all that sure that Gandalf knew that Durin's Bane was actually a balrog til the Smoking Beast showed up right before the bridge at Khazad-Dum. Good point, CBG, and the "homage to Morgoth" naming Grond the ram after Grond the hammer got right past me. Good call. I wonder if Sauron had a picture of Morgoth all nicely framed sitting on his nightstand..... "To Sauron, worst lieutenant a guy could have ....I really mean it.....don't ever change. Morgie." __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

03-07-2002, 09:18 PM	#11
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Sauron was a god to his slaves, though it appears he is more the high priest as it were-turning people to worship Melkor. See the Akallebeth for my reasoning. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-08-2002, 11:05 AM	#14
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	"The secret flame of Anor?" I made a long post about this somewhat recently. I'll see if I can find it. Of course I don't know what it is, but I have my theories. ... Here it is. I just had to search for "Flame of Anor" in order to find it. Click here. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-08-2002, 11:55 AM	#15
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Yeah, Pailan, now it confuses me too. Not only the fact that "hell" appears after Udun in the Index of that edition, but also Nolendil's indication that "hell" also occurs on the map. I guess I missed the hell references. I could have sworn it wasn't mentioned. Good thorough post on the Flame of Anor, Nolendil! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

03-08-2002, 03:25 PM	#18
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	I recall reading hell in refrence to Utumno I really need to buy Morgoth's ring... __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-08-2002, 11:16 PM	#19
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	OK, Foster gives three different definitions and 2 translations for Udun. (From the Complete Guide to Middle-earth) Udun- (Sindarin-un-west? Hell?) The source of the dark flame of the Balrogs, possibly Utumno, possibly the darkness of the Spirit of Melkor. Udun-(Sindarin-not-valley?) Utumno Udun- The circular plain in Mordor between Isenmouthe and Cirith Gorgor. Then we have: The Flame of Anor- The power wielded by Gandalf, possibly an allusion to the white light of the Sun as a symbol of the Secret Fire. The Flame of Udun- The fire of the Balrog.