Will and Magic

afro-elf · 03-06-2002, 08:17 PM

what I like about TOL's magic that is seems to be subtle ( mostly)
and a manifestion of will

the songs of power between sauron and finrod

and luthien and melkor

Or that Aragorn could wrest control of the Palatir away from Sauron

Or dispite all of Sauron's power Denethor's will could be swayed.
(A skewered vision made him go batty)

That Eowyn love of Theoden allowed her to stand her ground again the witch-king

I think it is much better story telling that having everyone shoot fire balls outta their arse

TinuvielChild · 03-06-2002, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
I thing it is much better story telling that having everyone shoot fire balls outta their arse

i've heard of people shooting fire balls out of their fingers, but out of their arse?!?!?!?

afro-elf · 03-06-2002, 08:46 PM

its just a figure of speech for overblown magic

TinuvielChild · 03-06-2002, 08:51 PM

ahhh thank you for that clarification!!! that conjured up a very weird image...actually rather like that scene in monty python and the holy grail with the trumpeters...

Twilight · 03-06-2002, 10:06 PM

That was a quote from Braveheart if I am not mistaken. Yes, I do very much like the Tolkien way of magic. Magic is way out of control in most books. They make you wonder why the world doesn't just fly apart if there are magic users that are so powerful. The Tolkien way of magic is much better I think.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-06-2002, 11:03 PM

Yeah, me too, but it was considered more of an art among the Elves than magic. Speaking of Finrod, how about where he was able to change all of his companions forms and faces into Orcs? Pretty Cool.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 03-07-2002, 12:54 AM

I always found that sort of overblown magic to be a bit much...
(don't get me started on the movie!!!) That's yet another thing I admire about Tolkien's writing....

afro-elf · 03-07-2002, 05:11 AM

twilight

i think in braveheart is was lighting

i guess if the guys who do south park did LOTR that might thake that literally

bropous · 03-07-2002, 01:00 PM

Well, I for one vote for shooting fireballs out of the arse.....

Funny thought: Can you imagine Eric Cartman as Frodo.....

Cartman/Frodo on the slopes of the Emyn Muil:
"Screw you guys, I'm goin' home! Samwise, I hate you....."

markedel · 03-07-2002, 07:23 PM

It is difficult to know what is actually magic in LOTR, such things as the cool lamps of gondolin (tm).

bropous · 03-07-2002, 08:28 PM

"cool lamps of gondolin"?

Did I miss something?

Elvet · 03-07-2002, 08:29 PM

I have always considered that the Maia were more magical than the other races of middle earth. Maybe because in the Hobbit, Gandalf appears as a wizard ( and that was the first book I read).
Melian's girdle is the best example of what seems true magic.
And Luthien Tinuviel (part Maia) was able to use her voice to
lull people to sleep.

markedel · 03-07-2002, 09:20 PM

In the coming of Turgon to Gondolin there are cool blue glowing lamps (I'm too lazy to pull out the footnote) that Voronwe had with him. Thus "cool lamps of gondolin (tm)"

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 03-08-2002, 01:07 AM

[spoiler for Silmarillion readers]

Markedel, they are called "FÃ«anorian lamps" in Unfinished Tales. FÃ«anor invented them I guess. In Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin they are used by Gelmir and Arminas, Grey-elves of (I believe) CÃ*rdan's havens. Also in one version of Turin's story, it is the uncovering of one of these lamps that reveals to the hero his unwitting murder of Beleg, rather than a flash of lightning.

Arathorn · 03-08-2002, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elvet
I have always considered that the Maia were more magical than the other races of middle earth. Maybe because in the Hobbit, Gandalf appears as a wizard ( and that was the first book I read).
Melian's girdle is the best example of what seems true magic.
And Luthien Tinuviel (part Maia) was able to use her voice to
lull people to sleep.

My Thermodynamics professor was probably part-Maia too. I used to doze off during his lamentations on collision theory where his melody needed work. I was in the front row, BTW. Truly magical and subtle, IMO.

TinuvielChild · 03-08-2002, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arathorn

My Thermodynamics professor was probably part-Maia too. I used to doze off during his lamentations on collision theory where his melody needed work. I was in the front row, BTW. Truly magical and subtle, IMO.

same goes for my Algebra 1 teacher!! i also sit in the front row...i used to sit in the back..maybe that's why i'm now in the front!

03-06-2002, 08:17 PM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Will and Magic what I like about TOL's magic that is seems to be subtle ( mostly) and a manifestion of will the songs of power between sauron and finrod and luthien and melkor Or that Aragorn could wrest control of the Palatir away from Sauron Or dispite all of Sauron's power Denethor's will could be swayed. (A skewered vision made him go batty) That Eowyn love of Theoden allowed her to stand her ground again the witch-king I think it is much better story telling that having everyone shoot fire balls outta their arse __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 03-06-2002 at 08:45 PM.

03-06-2002, 08:46 PM	#3
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	its just a figure of speech for overblown magic __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-06-2002, 08:51 PM	#4
TinuvielChild Padawan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Barony of Carolingia Posts: 2,176	ahhh thank you for that clarification!!! that conjured up a very weird image...actually rather like that scene in monty python and the holy grail with the trumpeters... __________________ There are only four questions of value in life: What is sacred? Of what is the spirit made? What is worth living for? What is worth dying for? The answer to each is the same: ONLY LOVE. Dance as though nobody's watching. Sing as though nobody's listening. Dream as though you'll live forever. Live as though you'll die tomorrow. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO and proud! FRODO LIVES!!!!!

03-06-2002, 10:06 PM	#5
Twilight Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wilmore, KY Posts: 269	That was a quote from Braveheart if I am not mistaken. Yes, I do very much like the Tolkien way of magic. Magic is way out of control in most books. They make you wonder why the world doesn't just fly apart if there are magic users that are so powerful. The Tolkien way of magic is much better I think. __________________ Sometimes I wonder how many monkeys with typewritters it would take to reproduce what I just wrote.

03-07-2002, 12:54 AM	#7
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	I always found that sort of overblown magic to be a bit much... (don't get me started on the movie!!!) That's yet another thing I admire about Tolkien's writing.... __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

03-06-2002, 11:03 PM	#6
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Yeah, me too, but it was considered more of an art among the Elves than magic. Speaking of Finrod, how about where he was able to change all of his companions forms and faces into Orcs? Pretty Cool.

03-07-2002, 05:11 AM	#8
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	twilight i think in braveheart is was lighting i guess if the guys who do south park did LOTR that might thake that literally __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-07-2002, 01:00 PM	#9
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Well, I for one vote for shooting fireballs out of the arse..... Funny thought: Can you imagine Eric Cartman as Frodo..... Cartman/Frodo on the slopes of the Emyn Muil: "Screw you guys, I'm goin' home! Samwise, I hate you....." __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

03-07-2002, 07:23 PM	#10
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	It is difficult to know what is actually magic in LOTR, such things as the cool lamps of gondolin (tm). __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-07-2002, 08:28 PM	#11
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	"cool lamps of gondolin"? Did I miss something? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

03-07-2002, 08:29 PM	#12
Elvet Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Orillia, Ontario Posts: 221	I have always considered that the Maia were more magical than the other races of middle earth. Maybe because in the Hobbit, Gandalf appears as a wizard ( and that was the first book I read). Melian's girdle is the best example of what seems true magic. And Luthien Tinuviel (part Maia) was able to use her voice to lull people to sleep. __________________ "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

03-07-2002, 09:20 PM	#13
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	In the coming of Turgon to Gondolin there are cool blue glowing lamps (I'm too lazy to pull out the footnote) that Voronwe had with him. Thus "cool lamps of gondolin (tm)" __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-08-2002, 01:07 AM	#14
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	[spoiler for Silmarillion readers] Markedel, they are called "FÃ«anorian lamps" in Unfinished Tales. FÃ«anor invented them I guess. In Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin they are used by Gelmir and Arminas, Grey-elves of (I believe) CÃ*rdan's havens. Also in one version of Turin's story, it is the uncovering of one of these lamps that reveals to the hero his unwitting murder of Beleg, rather than a flash of lightning. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan