Sam vs. Gollum

KGamgee · 01-29-2002, 08:28 PM

Okay. This is sort of weird, but during the TTT when Gollum was Smeagol and an okay guy, did some of his charactieristics remind you of Sam?
Now don't get me wrong, I love Sam, he's my favorite character, and I'm not comparing him to the trecherous Gollum, but Smeagol.
Any thoughts?

ragamuffin92 · 01-29-2002, 09:20 PM

Hmmmmmmm, interesting question, K. Have to ponder this one a bit.
One other thing Tolkien talked about in "Letters" was the fact that, at the point that Gollum was on the brink of "redemption" (when he was watching Frodo sleep, saying "Nice master," or whatever), Sam spoke harshly to him, and the "nice" side of Gollum was gone forever. Even tho Sam tried to apologize, it was too late--the damage had been done. I believe that soon after, Gollum led them to Shelob.

FrodoFriend · 01-30-2002, 12:53 AM

Well, Gollum was a hobbit-like thing once, so it would make sense for his "good" side to resemble a hobbit. I don't know, he always seemed a little too fawning, though. I guess in his loyalty (albeit dubious) and affection for Frodo he was somewhat like Sam.

Legolas_BowKing · 01-30-2002, 04:34 AM

Thats a really good point

athelas · 01-30-2002, 07:42 AM

Okay, Smeagol does show some "affection" for Frodo at times by pawing at his knees and saying things like "nice master...nice master..." But his "affections" always seem fissshy, and have this motive-driven feel, like the last paragraph of the chapter " The Black Gate is Closed", where he pats Frodo's knees and tells him" Good Master... wise master..nice master...Rest and lie quiet, till the yellow face goes away. Then we can go quickly." He sounds a tad too eager to get to Cirith Ungol.

True, there was still a little good left in the Smeagol side of him when he felt a little sad about handing his master over to Shelob, but as Faramir put it, "Not wholly, perhaps, but malice eats him like a canker, and the evil is growing..." This shows the difference between the affection shown by Sam towards Frodo and that showered upon him by Gollum. Though both may seem similar at times, Sam's affection is always genuine and sincere, unlike Gollum's, which was influenced mostly by his lust for the ring.

GO SAM!!

Mithrandir · 01-30-2002, 01:00 PM

Not really sure about the resemblance that you are seeing. The Instant that Deagol finds the ring, Gollum instantaneously becomes corrupt and commands his cousin to hand it over to him. Since Deagol doesn't, Smeagol kills him.

Now Sam has been at the side of Frodo since they both leave the Shire together, and never does Sam ever become corrupt by being in the rings company, not even when he gives it back to Frodo in ROTK.

Gollum wasn't excatly a hobbit, he was a Stoor, which were one of the three ancient hobbit-kinds.

KGamgee · 01-30-2002, 08:43 PM

I'm not saying they are exactly the same or anything, but it seems like they have some characteristics that are similar. Before he was corrupted, Smeagol loved stories, one of Sam's attributes. They both, at times, refer to themselves in the third person. Both refuse to disobey their master. (Gollum did at the end, not Smeagol) I think that they are very similar in many ways...that may be why they don't get along.
~Thanks for the opinions~

01-29-2002, 08:28 PM	#1
KGamgee Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 103	Sam vs. Gollum Okay. This is sort of weird, but during the TTT when Gollum was Smeagol and an okay guy, did some of his charactieristics remind you of Sam? Now don't get me wrong, I love Sam, he's my favorite character, and I'm not comparing him to the trecherous Gollum, but Smeagol. Any thoughts?

01-29-2002, 09:20 PM	#2
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	Hmmmmmmm, interesting question, K. Have to ponder this one a bit. One other thing Tolkien talked about in "Letters" was the fact that, at the point that Gollum was on the brink of "redemption" (when he was watching Frodo sleep, saying "Nice master," or whatever), Sam spoke harshly to him, and the "nice" side of Gollum was gone forever. Even tho Sam tried to apologize, it was too late--the damage had been done. I believe that soon after, Gollum led them to Shelob. __________________ FRODO LIVES!! (sung to the tune of "My Boyfriend's Back") Now, Gandalf's back, and you're gonna be in trouble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) Soon, Barad-dur is gonna be a pile of rubble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back)

01-30-2002, 12:53 AM	#3
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Well, Gollum was a hobbit-like thing once, so it would make sense for his "good" side to resemble a hobbit. I don't know, he always seemed a little too fawning, though. I guess in his loyalty (albeit dubious) and affection for Frodo he was somewhat like Sam. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-30-2002, 07:42 AM	#5
athelas Enting Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Twilight Meres Posts: 87	Okay, Smeagol does show some "affection" for Frodo at times by pawing at his knees and saying things like "nice master...nice master..." But his "affections" always seem fissshy, and have this motive-driven feel, like the last paragraph of the chapter " The Black Gate is Closed", where he pats Frodo's knees and tells him" Good Master... wise master..nice master...Rest and lie quiet, till the yellow face goes away. Then we can go quickly." He sounds a tad too eager to get to Cirith Ungol. True, there was still a little good left in the Smeagol side of him when he felt a little sad about handing his master over to Shelob, but as Faramir put it, "Not wholly, perhaps, but malice eats him like a canker, and the evil is growing..." This shows the difference between the affection shown by Sam towards Frodo and that showered upon him by Gollum. Though both may seem similar at times, Sam's affection is always genuine and sincere, unlike Gollum's, which was influenced mostly by his lust for the ring. GO SAM!! __________________ Farewell sweet earth and nortern sky, for ever blest,since here did lie and here with lissom limbs did run beneath the Moon, beneath the Sun, Lùthien Tinùviel more fair than mortal tongue can tell. Though all to ruin fell the world and were dissolved and backward hurled unmade into old abyss, yet were its making good, for this-- the dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea-- that Lùthien for a time should be. "I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam."-Frodo FRODO LIVES!!! (erm...Sam does too, right?)

01-30-2002, 01:00 PM	#6
Mithrandir Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: MA Posts: 39	Not really sure about the resemblance that you are seeing. The Instant that Deagol finds the ring, Gollum instantaneously becomes corrupt and commands his cousin to hand it over to him. Since Deagol doesn't, Smeagol kills him. Now Sam has been at the side of Frodo since they both leave the Shire together, and never does Sam ever become corrupt by being in the rings company, not even when he gives it back to Frodo in ROTK. Gollum wasn't excatly a hobbit, he was a Stoor, which were one of the three ancient hobbit-kinds. __________________ Frodo Lives!!! spread the word!!

01-30-2002, 04:34 AM	#4
Legolas_BowKing Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 115	Thats a really good point

01-30-2002, 08:43 PM	#7
KGamgee Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 103	I'm not saying they are exactly the same or anything, but it seems like they have some characteristics that are similar. Before he was corrupted, Smeagol loved stories, one of Sam's attributes. They both, at times, refer to themselves in the third person. Both refuse to disobey their master. (Gollum did at the end, not Smeagol) I think that they are very similar in many ways...that may be why they don't get along. ~Thanks for the opinions~

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