The Treason of Isengard

Ñólendil · 01-26-2002, 05:36 PM

I believe there is another thread on this forum (started by bropous or Tar-Elenion?) dealing with a worry many fans have. In The Fellowship of the Ring movie, Saruman doesn't come across as a double-crosser, but rather a mere servant of Sauron. But here's a quote I found on the official movie site, I think it may put to rest such worries:

Quote:

Facing off against the Fellowship is the evil Saruman, once the head of the Council of the Wise, who has since succumbed to the dark temptations of Sauron’s power. Saruman wants Frodo’s ring and is willing to use his specially bred Uruk-Hai — grotesque, war-like creatures -- to get it. Perhaps no one could embody Saruman better than that long-time master, Christopher Lee.

Lee had played many mythical creatures before but had never been involved with a project like The Lord of The Rings. "This is the outright creation of an entire world," he says. "It brings together history and languages and cultures and makes a dreamscape come true."

Although Saruman lived around 7,000 mythical years ago, Lee sees his dark reflection all over the place in the modern world. "To my way of thinking, the evil that exists today isn’t that different from what you see in Middle-earth. People will always crave power and Saruman wants Sauron’s power," he explains. "To me, he is not just the physical force of evil personified, he is also very real."

Captain Stern · 01-26-2002, 06:23 PM

That's all very fine and dandy, but it simply isn't the case in the movie, whether it was intended to be or not.

Maybe it'll change in TTT but I'm not holding my breath.

Littledude87 · 01-26-2002, 10:45 PM

Sauroman turned to the other side because he thought it was the more powerfull. I think they portray this just as well in the movie as the book.

Lizra · 05-06-2002, 12:42 AM

what, is Saruman like annakin/darth vader? I need to see the clone wars I guess.

***IronParrot*** · 05-06-2002, 01:06 AM

Guys, I don't see what the big problem is.

Saruman isn't any less subservient to Sauron in the novel. In both the novel and the film, he thinks he is acting on his own free will, working with Sauron to stay alive but trying to recover the Ring first so all the power comes to him! However, he is in a way acting under Sauron because he has been ensnared by the Palantir.

The film makes a CLEAR acknowledgement of this when Gandalf says, "There is only one Lord of the Ring - and he does not share power." Despite Saruman's rhetoric to ensnare Gandalf, the latter realizes the former's true motives.

Just because it's implicit (and quite clearly so, I think) doesn't mean it's not there.

barrelrider110 · 05-06-2002, 07:59 AM

I think the movie quite clearly portrayed Saruman as a traitor. Gandalf refers to him as "the head of our order" and goes to him seeking advice.

What is missing in the exposition is the last meeting of the white council where Saruman declares that the ring is lost in the sea by way of the Anduin. This is the real teachery, a deliberate lie intended to deceive Gandalf and the rest while Saruman searches for the ring. What's also not evident is Saruman's envy of Gandalf.

I don't have a problem with either, the movie by its nature has its limitations, and such subtleties of plot and character are bound to be lost or harder to find.

***azalea*** · 05-06-2002, 08:42 AM

I think the original worry was that Saruman was being portrayed as truly chooing to be under Sauron's command, when he actually is seeking to become the Lord of the Rings. That point wasn't played up very much, but my guess is that it will become very obvious in the second film to those who may not have caught the subtlety in the first.

Elf Girl · 05-07-2002, 06:50 AM

Oops. I didn't mean to post this. Sorry admins. My hand slipped and I hit the little button.

Lightice · 05-07-2002, 07:49 AM

One of my friends who hadn't read the book wondered, why Gandalf didn't call "all other wizards to help" after betrayal of Saruman...
After I explained, why such thing couldn't happen, he taught that it was pretty silly to call Saruman "head of the order", then.
I say it fits, but it perhaps could be explained a bit better in the film, that there really ain't but three active wizards in the world.

BeardofPants · 05-07-2002, 02:14 PM

All very good points.

However, the main problem I have with the movie characterisation of Saruman, is that you don't really get a chance to see him pretending to be "good". I mean, the movie pretty much, just leaps straight into that silly staff hurling, fight thing. I think Saruman's treachery (among other things) probably could have been more detailed. As far as I'm concerned, there practically was no double-crossing, because he never really got the chance to play at being a pretend good guy.

Just my opinion. Please don't hurt me.

coolismo · 05-08-2002, 06:39 AM

I run a website (which i cant promote here cos the cardigans won't let me) and the response there tells me that Saruman is a dud villain. I think its the fight scene at the start. The audience just sees him as a kind of Bond baddie. He blows his baddieness in his first major scene. So what he can win a fight, we know that in the genre this means he will lose the war so the audience just lose interest in him. Villains are supposed to delay a confrontation so we can savour the action later. The function of great baddieness is to make us wait for the showdown. Saruman just beats people up and then dies on a spike'''awful. Read the passages in the book to see how the duel between the wizards is a verbal tour de force. Only the ego of Saruman takes a beating. Maybe chris lee will do better in clones where, according to the poster, he is due to play an old man with a torch.

BeardofPants · 05-08-2002, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Maybe chris lee will do better in clones where, according to the poster, he is due to play an old man with a torch.

I live in Eternal Hope. Somehow it seems dodgy that the sith lord (?) or whoever he's playing is so damned old.

Back on topic: I HATED the way they changed the duel of the minds into a staffbapping contest. Really?!

coolismo · 05-08-2002, 07:35 AM

cmon he's a hack actor...chris lee sits in those press conferences doing the ol thespian thing in his tweeds ('my dear boy i worked with the Nashnul Feater y'know) and look what his output is. A terrible Saruman and an old sith (is that thaid with a lithhhppp?). No decent actor would take the script... except er Larry Olivier ....
One rule is never have old men fighting in movies. In boys from brazil a creaking Gregory Peck fights Larry Olivier and it looked bloody daft.
I still (or is that thhhtill) cant get over that poster for bring on the clones...my dad (may he rest in peace) once came home with a top of the range torch in about 1982. He was pretty old and frail by then and this thing just looked daft, like a halogen beam thing that could pick out craters on the dark side of the moon. Chris lee in that poster reminds me af dear ol da' sitting in the garden flicking this thing on and off. Just doesn't kinda marry up....

jerseydevil · 05-08-2002, 04:12 PM

I think the fact that Jackson showed that Saruman was in direct contact with Sauron through the Palantir in Fellowship of the Ring was one of the many mistakes Jackson made with the film.

Everyone I talk to that hasn't read the book thinks that Saruman plans on getting the Ring for Sauron and is just one of Sauron's hencemen. There is no slow buildup to Saruman's evilness in the movie. We knew within 45 minutes that Saruman was using the Palantir - where as in the Books we don't find out until after the destruction of Isengard. That is the first time we know that Sauron is controlling him. In the book there isn't an Orc asking Saruman -"What does the eye command, master?" But I guess again it had to be dumbed down for the audience and have neon lights flashing - "Saruman is controlled by Sauron" for people to understand it.

Gorhiriel · 05-14-2002, 09:23 PM

I say the scene showing Saruman talking to Sauron is good. it shows that he has been corrupted.

entss89 · 08-21-2002, 08:22 PM

THATS A LONG QOUET

Laurelyn · 08-26-2002, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Back on topic: I HATED the way they changed the duel of the minds into a staffbapping contest.

Ditto.
*thinks* Wait . . . did you mean that? I did.
Entss89: What's a "long qouet," smelly Orc, dear? Is your keyboard permanent locked on caps? Eesh. And whatever is the matter with your spell check . . . and, for that matter, grammar? Complete sentences . . . what an obscure theory. *evil grin*

Laurelyn · 08-26-2002, 10:52 AM

Oops . . . The terrible now-edited double-poster (I swear, it was a mistake!) begs forgiveness of the Almighty Admins and Mods and her fellow Mooters.
Geez, I feel like a total idiot . . .

Sween · 09-07-2002, 02:34 PM

http://www.sideshowtoy.com/cgi-bin/c...01R&type=store

heres a nice pic with the dreaded wheel in it.

01-26-2002, 06:23 PM	#2
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	Re That's all very fine and dandy, but it simply isn't the case in the movie, whether it was intended to be or not. Maybe it'll change in TTT but I'm not holding my breath. __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. Last edited by Captain Stern : 01-26-2002 at 06:27 PM.

05-06-2002, 12:42 AM	#4
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	what, is Saruman like annakin/darth vader? I need to see the clone wars I guess. __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

05-06-2002, 01:06 AM	#5
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	Guys, I don't see what the big problem is. Saruman isn't any less subservient to Sauron in the novel. In both the novel and the film, he thinks he is acting on his own free will, working with Sauron to stay alive but trying to recover the Ring first so all the power comes to him! However, he is in a way acting under Sauron because he has been ensnared by the Palantir. The film makes a CLEAR acknowledgement of this when Gandalf says, "There is only one Lord of the Ring - and he does not share power." Despite Saruman's rhetoric to ensnare Gandalf, the latter realizes the former's true motives. Just because it's implicit (and quite clearly so, I think) doesn't mean it's not there. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

05-06-2002, 07:59 AM	#6
barrelrider110 Peer of the realm of Sanguine Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ Posts: 798	I think the movie quite clearly portrayed Saruman as a traitor. Gandalf refers to him as "the head of our order" and goes to him seeking advice. What is missing in the exposition is the last meeting of the white council where Saruman declares that the ring is lost in the sea by way of the Anduin. This is the real teachery, a deliberate lie intended to deceive Gandalf and the rest while Saruman searches for the ring. What's also not evident is Saruman's envy of Gandalf. I don't have a problem with either, the movie by its nature has its limitations, and such subtleties of plot and character are bound to be lost or harder to find. __________________ “"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling

05-07-2002, 06:50 AM	#8
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	Oops. I didn't mean to post this. Sorry admins. My hand slipped and I hit the little button. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... Last edited by Elf Girl : 05-07-2002 at 06:52 AM.

01-26-2002, 10:45 PM	#3
Littledude87 Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 27	Sauroman turned to the other side because he thought it was the more powerfull. I think they portray this just as well in the movie as the book.

05-06-2002, 08:42 AM	#7
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I think the original worry was that Saruman was being portrayed as truly chooing to be under Sauron's command, when he actually is seeking to become the Lord of the Rings. That point wasn't played up very much, but my guess is that it will become very obvious in the second film to those who may not have caught the subtlety in the first.

05-07-2002, 07:49 AM	#9
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	One of my friends who hadn't read the book wondered, why Gandalf didn't call "all other wizards to help" after betrayal of Saruman... After I explained, why such thing couldn't happen, he taught that it was pretty silly to call Saruman "head of the order", then. I say it fits, but it perhaps could be explained a bit better in the film, that there really ain't but three active wizards in the world.

05-07-2002, 02:14 PM	#10
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	All very good points. However, the main problem I have with the movie characterisation of Saruman, is that you don't really get a chance to see him pretending to be "good". I mean, the movie pretty much, just leaps straight into that silly staff hurling, fight thing. I think Saruman's treachery (among other things) probably could have been more detailed. As far as I'm concerned, there practically was no double-crossing, because he never really got the chance to play at being a pretend good guy. Just my opinion. Please don't hurt me. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

05-08-2002, 06:39 AM	#11
coolismo Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: south england Posts: 93	saruman the dud I run a website (which i cant promote here cos the cardigans won't let me) and the response there tells me that Saruman is a dud villain. I think its the fight scene at the start. The audience just sees him as a kind of Bond baddie. He blows his baddieness in his first major scene. So what he can win a fight, we know that in the genre this means he will lose the war so the audience just lose interest in him. Villains are supposed to delay a confrontation so we can savour the action later. The function of great baddieness is to make us wait for the showdown. Saruman just beats people up and then dies on a spike'''awful. Read the passages in the book to see how the duel between the wizards is a verbal tour de force. Only the ego of Saruman takes a beating. Maybe chris lee will do better in clones where, according to the poster, he is due to play an old man with a torch.

05-08-2002, 07:35 AM	#13
coolismo Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: south england Posts: 93	chris hack cmon he's a hack actor...chris lee sits in those press conferences doing the ol thespian thing in his tweeds ('my dear boy i worked with the Nashnul Feater y'know) and look what his output is. A terrible Saruman and an old sith (is that thaid with a lithhhppp?). No decent actor would take the script... except er Larry Olivier .... One rule is never have old men fighting in movies. In boys from brazil a creaking Gregory Peck fights Larry Olivier and it looked bloody daft. I still (or is that thhhtill) cant get over that poster for bring on the clones...my dad (may he rest in peace) once came home with a top of the range torch in about 1982. He was pretty old and frail by then and this thing just looked daft, like a halogen beam thing that could pick out craters on the dark side of the moon. Chris lee in that poster reminds me af dear ol da' sitting in the garden flicking this thing on and off. Just doesn't kinda marry up....

05-08-2002, 04:12 PM	#14
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	I think the fact that Jackson showed that Saruman was in direct contact with Sauron through the Palantir in Fellowship of the Ring was one of the many mistakes Jackson made with the film. Everyone I talk to that hasn't read the book thinks that Saruman plans on getting the Ring for Sauron and is just one of Sauron's hencemen. There is no slow buildup to Saruman's evilness in the movie. We knew within 45 minutes that Saruman was using the Palantir - where as in the Books we don't find out until after the destruction of Isengard. That is the first time we know that Sauron is controlling him. In the book there isn't an Orc asking Saruman -"What does the eye command, master?" But I guess again it had to be dumbed down for the audience and have neon lights flashing - "Saruman is controlled by Sauron" for people to understand it. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

05-14-2002, 09:23 PM	#15
Gorhiriel Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 112	Blank I say the scene showing Saruman talking to Sauron is good. it shows that he has been corrupted. __________________ Do not mess with me, or I will call my dragons and Destroy You All!!! BOROMIR LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "And anon shall I Sail into the West: with the setting sun I shall remove my light from this world..."

08-21-2002, 08:22 PM	#16
entss89 lord of the ents Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: nc Posts: 539	HI THATS A LONG QOUET

08-26-2002, 10:52 AM	#18
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Oops . . . The terrible now-edited double-poster (I swear, it was a mistake!) begs forgiveness of the Almighty Admins and Mods and her fellow Mooters. Geez, I feel like a total idiot . . . __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka Last edited by Laurelyn : 08-26-2002 at 10:55 AM.

09-07-2002, 02:34 PM	#19
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	http://www.sideshowtoy.com/cgi-bin/c...01R&type=store heres a nice pic with the dreaded wheel in it. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

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