Entishly

easterlinge · 01-04-2002, 04:31 AM

Where do Ents go when they die? Elves and Dwarves go to Mandos in separate halls, while Men go Beyond. But Ents?

Ents are sentient beings, are they the Fourth Children of Iluvatar?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-04-2002, 10:52 AM

Who are the third children of Iluvatar?

Gimly · 01-04-2002, 02:27 PM

There wre no Third children of Iluvatar, only Elves and Human.
Gnomes were created by Aule, but were approved to wake up in their caves, along with the Birth of the Elves.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-04-2002, 02:34 PM

That's what I thought. Right. The Dwarves were not counted among the Children. They were not of Iluvatars thought, or plan.

AreteLaugh · 01-05-2002, 03:07 PM

Good question!

The Silmarilion says that when the elves awoke; "... then the thought of Yavanna willl awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go amoung the kelvar and the ovlar, and some will dwell therin... " So obvioulsy the ents were part of the great music and their spirits must have some fate.

Of Mandos/Namo the Silmarillion says that he "summoner of the spirits of the slain" so perhaps their spirits reside in his halls. While clearly this doesn't apply to men perhaps there is a hall for the spirits of Yavanna although it is not mentioned.

Finglas · 01-05-2002, 05:00 PM

Are the Ents immortal, or do they just live for a really long time?

Ñólendil · 01-05-2002, 05:00 PM

Dwarves, not Gnomes Gimli. The Gnomes were the Ñoldor.

The Dwarrows were indeed the Third Children of Ilúvatar, at least according to one version. This is said in The Peoples of Middle-earth in the latest account of the making of the Dwarves. After the Dwarf-fathers are put to sleep Eru declares them to be his Third Children.

I haven't a clue what happens to Ents. It probably depends on their origin, which is a bit mysterious.

Comic Book Guy · 01-05-2002, 06:55 PM

I always had the impression that they eventually turn into trees and sleep until the end of days.

emplynx · 01-05-2002, 07:35 PM

I had the same idea as Comic Book Guy, but they could be burned to death or destroyed by large quantities of weapons of attack.

Renille · 01-05-2002, 07:55 PM

I thought the same thing as emplynx and CBG. Treebeard DID say something about the ents becoming more "treeish" didn't he?

emplynx · 01-05-2002, 09:25 PM

True, Renille, he did say they were becoming more and more treeish and some had already become trees.

Renille · 01-06-2002, 01:22 AM

I even found the quote!

'Why are there so few, when you have lived in this country so long?" asked Pippin. "Have a great many died?"
"Oh, no!" said Treebeard. "None have died from the inside, as you might say. Some have falled in the evil chances of long years, of course;and more have grown tree-ish. But there were never very many of us, and we have not increased. There have been no entings- no children, you would say,not for a terrible long count of years. You see, we lost the Entwives."

Ñólendil · 01-06-2002, 01:35 AM

But even Trees die. We haven't discovered anything in Middle-earth that lives forever.

Gimly · 01-06-2002, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Dwarves, not Gnomes Gimli. The Gnomes were the Ñoldor.

The Dwarrows were indeed the Third Children of Ilúvatar, at least according to one version. This is said in The Peoples of Middle-earth in the latest account of the making of the Dwarves. After the Dwarf-fathers are put to sleep Eru declares them to be his Third Children.

I haven't a clue what happens to Ents. It probably depends on their origin, which is a bit mysterious.

Whoops, my mistake. Also, you might be right. I havce read the Sil only once (not enough for such a book) half-a-year (maybe a year) ago, so I can't remember it all in details.

Ñólendil · 01-06-2002, 05:42 PM

Oh, your memory's good enough. It doesn't say that the Dwarrows were the Third Children in the Silmarillion, you have to get Vol. XII of the History of Middle-earth for that.

bropous · 01-07-2002, 12:47 PM

The Dwarves were not even Children of Iluvatar, the Seven Dwarf Fathers were created by Aule, which was an act beyond his power and authority, and was not inluded in the Music of Iluvatar. Iluvatar was p.o.'ed at Aule for doing this, creating the Dwarves to come into being prior to the awakening of the Firstborn of the Children of Iluvatar, but forgave Aule when Aule apologized for being so headstrong and offered to destroy his creations. Iluvatar bade him stop, but cast them into sleep, and Aule put the Dwarf-Fathers under stone in separate locales, to awaken AFTER the Firstborn were discovered.

Of the Elves, Men and Dwarves, Iluvatar said: "...often strife shall arise between thine [Aule's Dwarves] and mine [Iluvatar's Children], the children of my adoption and the children of my choice". Aule hoped that at the End, that his children may be given a place as children of Iluvatar.

As for where the Ents go when they die, for there was an Ent who died in the attack on Isengard, I have no idea. Maybe a special hall of Mandos where Yavanna has visitation rights.

Wayfarer · 01-07-2002, 08:25 PM

Hmmm...

Quote:

"...often strife shall arise between thine [Aule's Dwarves] and mine [Iluvatar's Children], the children of my adoption and the children of my choice".

Let's see that again... Illuvatar is speaking, here.

Quote:

the children of my adoption and the children of my choice

So, the dwarves are 'the children of illuvatar's adoption'.
They are considered 'children of illuvatar.

bropous · 01-07-2002, 09:08 PM

Okay, Wayfarer, fair enough. Children of their adopted parents ARE their children.

However, in the Silmarillion, it states that Aule hopes that "his" children will "at the End" be accepted as "Children of Iluvatar".

UnStashable · 01-08-2002, 12:22 AM

I’m sorry bropous but to me it seems your taking the proverbial tulip in the Equally proverbial Rose patch and trying to claim its not a flower (proverbially of course).

As to the Slain ents I thought the spirits that entered them where at least maia-ish. So any ents slain be physical force would just float around or go back to Valinor, but I really have no solid idea.

Could this question also be applied to the eagles of Manwe or even other animals like huan? Just kind of reaching blind here.

bropous · 01-08-2002, 01:10 AM

"I’m sorry bropous but to me it seems your taking the proverbial tulip in the Equally proverbial Rose patch and trying to claim its not a flower (proverbially of course)."

Uh, UnStashable, could you be a little more specific as to which tulip in the rose patch I am claiming is not a flower?

If you're referring to the assertion that the Dwarves are not the Children of Iluvatar, that is directly from the Silmarillion, "Of Aule and Yavanna", Pages 40-42. Conversation between Aule and Iluvatar.

Hey! That tulip ain't no flower! What the hell is wrong with this rose patch, anyways???

01-04-2002, 04:31 AM	#1
easterlinge Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Farthest Khand, the darkest East... Posts: 442	Entishly Where do Ents go when they die? Elves and Dwarves go to Mandos in separate halls, while Men go Beyond. But Ents? Ents are sentient beings, are they the Fourth Children of Iluvatar? __________________ [b]"Et Earello Endorenna utulien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!"

01-04-2002, 02:27 PM	#3
Gimly Enting Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Here Posts: 53	There wre no Third children of Iluvatar, only Elves and Human. Gnomes were created by Aule, but were approved to wake up in their caves, along with the Birth of the Elves. __________________ Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.

01-05-2002, 05:00 PM	#6
Finglas Enting Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: here, there, everywhere Posts: 88	Are the Ents immortal, or do they just live for a really long time? __________________ If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

01-05-2002, 05:00 PM	#7
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Dwarves, not Gnomes Gimli. The Gnomes were the Ñoldor. The Dwarrows were indeed the Third Children of Ilúvatar, at least according to one version. This is said in The Peoples of Middle-earth in the latest account of the making of the Dwarves. After the Dwarf-fathers are put to sleep Eru declares them to be his Third Children. I haven't a clue what happens to Ents. It probably depends on their origin, which is a bit mysterious. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-05-2002, 07:55 PM	#10
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	I thought the same thing as emplynx and CBG. Treebeard DID say something about the ents becoming more "treeish" didn't he? __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

01-04-2002, 10:52 AM	#2
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Who are the third children of Iluvatar?

01-04-2002, 02:34 PM	#4
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	That's what I thought. Right. The Dwarves were not counted among the Children. They were not of Iluvatars thought, or plan.

01-05-2002, 03:07 PM	#5
AreteLaugh Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 9	Good question! The Silmarilion says that when the elves awoke; "... then the thought of Yavanna willl awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go amoung the kelvar and the ovlar, and some will dwell therin... " So obvioulsy the ents were part of the great music and their spirits must have some fate. Of Mandos/Namo the Silmarillion says that he "summoner of the spirits of the slain" so perhaps their spirits reside in his halls. While clearly this doesn't apply to men perhaps there is a hall for the spirits of Yavanna although it is not mentioned.

01-05-2002, 06:55 PM	#8
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	I always had the impression that they eventually turn into trees and sleep until the end of days.

01-05-2002, 07:35 PM	#9
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	I had the same idea as Comic Book Guy, but they could be burned to death or destroyed by large quantities of weapons of attack.

01-05-2002, 09:25 PM	#11
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	True, Renille, he did say they were becoming more and more treeish and some had already become trees.

01-06-2002, 01:22 AM	#12
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	I even found the quote! 'Why are there so few, when you have lived in this country so long?" asked Pippin. "Have a great many died?" "Oh, no!" said Treebeard. "None have died from the inside, as you might say. Some have falled in the evil chances of long years, of course;and more have grown tree-ish. But there were never very many of us, and we have not increased. There have been no entings- no children, you would say,not for a terrible long count of years. You see, we lost the Entwives." __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

01-06-2002, 01:35 AM	#13
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	But even Trees die. We haven't discovered anything in Middle-earth that lives forever. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-06-2002, 05:42 PM	#15
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Oh, your memory's good enough. It doesn't say that the Dwarrows were the Third Children in the Silmarillion, you have to get Vol. XII of the History of Middle-earth for that. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-07-2002, 12:47 PM	#16
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	The Dwarves were not even Children of Iluvatar, the Seven Dwarf Fathers were created by Aule, which was an act beyond his power and authority, and was not inluded in the Music of Iluvatar. Iluvatar was p.o.'ed at Aule for doing this, creating the Dwarves to come into being prior to the awakening of the Firstborn of the Children of Iluvatar, but forgave Aule when Aule apologized for being so headstrong and offered to destroy his creations. Iluvatar bade him stop, but cast them into sleep, and Aule put the Dwarf-Fathers under stone in separate locales, to awaken AFTER the Firstborn were discovered. Of the Elves, Men and Dwarves, Iluvatar said: "...often strife shall arise between thine [Aule's Dwarves] and mine [Iluvatar's Children], the children of my adoption and the children of my choice". Aule hoped that at the End, that his children may be given a place as children of Iluvatar. As for where the Ents go when they die, for there was an Ent who died in the attack on Isengard, I have no idea. Maybe a special hall of Mandos where Yavanna has visitation rights. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-07-2002, 09:08 PM	#18
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Okay, Wayfarer, fair enough. Children of their adopted parents ARE their children. However, in the Silmarillion, it states that Aule hopes that "his" children will "at the End" be accepted as "Children of Iluvatar". __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-08-2002, 12:22 AM	#19
UnStashable Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 52	I’m sorry bropous but to me it seems your taking the proverbial tulip in the Equally proverbial Rose patch and trying to claim its not a flower (proverbially of course). As to the Slain ents I thought the spirits that entered them where at least maia-ish. So any ents slain be physical force would just float around or go back to Valinor, but I really have no solid idea. Could this question also be applied to the eagles of Manwe or even other animals like huan? Just kind of reaching blind here. __________________ This elevator only goes to the basement, and sombody made an awful mess down there

01-08-2002, 01:10 AM	#20
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	"I’m sorry bropous but to me it seems your taking the proverbial tulip in the Equally proverbial Rose patch and trying to claim its not a flower (proverbially of course)." Uh, UnStashable, could you be a little more specific as to which tulip in the rose patch I am claiming is not a flower? If you're referring to the assertion that the Dwarves are not the Children of Iluvatar, that is directly from the Silmarillion, "Of Aule and Yavanna", Pages 40-42. Conversation between Aule and Iluvatar. Hey! That tulip ain't no flower! What the hell is wrong with this rose patch, anyways??? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.