arwen aragorn elrond and galdriel

Quickbeam · 12-01-2001, 06:17 PM

I know that arwen, aragorn, elrond, and galadriel are all connected somehow, but how does all that lineage work?

Comic Book Guy · 12-01-2001, 06:20 PM

Elrond married Galadriels Daughter who gave birth to Arwen. Aragorn is a descendent of Elros, brother of Elrond.

Bacchus · 12-01-2001, 06:50 PM

But wait, there's more!

Elrond's great grandfather was Turgon, son of Fingolfin. Fingolfin's brother Finarfin was Galadriel's father. (According to the Silmarillion, anyway. I know the Noldorin houses were garbled in the Sil, but I think that Galadriel's parentage was unchanged).

Quickbeam · 12-01-2001, 08:51 PM

then how is aragorn a human, adn elrond an elf?

Comic Book Guy · 12-01-2001, 09:19 PM

Elros and Elrond are only Half-Elven, sometime in their life they had to choose what race they wanted to be, Elros chose the fate of men and Elrond choose the fate of the Elves.

Elros then went on to become king of Numenor.

rashbold · 12-01-2001, 10:00 PM

As was already mentioned, Elrond and Elros are brothers, and they were the sons of EÃ¤rendil, the son of Tuor and Idril, and Elwing, the daughter of Dior and Nimloth. Tuor was the son of Huor of the Third House of the Edain (RÃ*an was his mother). Idril was the daughter of Turgon of the House of FinwÃ« (ElenwÃ« of the Vanyar was her mother). Dior was the son of Beren and LÃºthien. Although he can be considered as the first of the Half-elven (Pereldar), he was not given the power to choose his kindred and doom. Nimloth was of the kin of Celeborn (although the relation is somewhat blurred due to varying accounts--one account even had her as Celeborn's sister!).
Now, Elrond and Elros were given the power to choose, as did EÃ¤rendil and Elwing, to what kindred they will be judge in the End. Elrond chose to be with the Eldar, but Elros, chose to be judged as a mortal Man. He was given the grace of long life, to five hundred years, and became the first King of NÃºmenor. Elendil was his descendant through SilmariÃ«n, the sister of Tar-Elendil the third King.
Elendil had two sons, Isildur and AnÃ¡rion. From AnÃ¡rion were descended the Kings of Gondor, a line which died out with the disappearance of EÃ¤rnur in TA 2050. From Isildur were descended the Kings of Arnor, the Kings of Arthedian and the Chieftains of the Northern DÃºnedain. During the War of the Ring, that Chieftain was Aragorn.
Now Elrond wed CelebrÃ*an the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel sometime during the Second Age, and their children were Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen. So indeed, Aragorn and Arwen were indeed akin from afar.

Elrond · 12-01-2001, 10:45 PM

Plus I am married to Celeborn's Daughter

Finmandos12 · 12-01-2001, 10:55 PM

It's weird to think that Galadriel is Elrond's mother in law.

Gwaihir · 12-02-2001, 12:28 AM

I am not sure that they are mother and son.
I think they are Mother in law and son

Gwaihir · 12-02-2001, 12:29 AM

sorry about that bit of repetition, forgot what he said.

galadriel · 12-04-2001, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Finmandos12
It's weird to think that Galadriel is Elrond's mother in law.

That is *very* weird, I agree. I wonder if they have family squabbles? That could be amusing.

arynetrek · 12-06-2001, 02:21 AM

family squabbles among the Elves? um, remember Sil, anyone? shall i start giving names?

something i find a little strange among the Elves is how relaxed they seem to be about "closely knitting" families - for example, the knot of people we're talking about. no matter how many years were between us, i (as a 20th century person in america) would still feel weird about marrying my uncle's great-great-etc-etc. grandson.

wondering if that makes any sense,
aryne *

Wayfarer · 12-06-2001, 03:03 PM

Aragorn was at least 20 generations removed, and I'd lean towards more.

It's not like they were marrying a close relative.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 12-06-2001, 09:41 PM

Certainly not. All the Kings of NÃºmenÃ³r, Rulers of AndÃºniÃ«, Kings of Gondor and Arnor and Chieftains of the DÃºnedain for some five thousand years lie between Aragorn and his ancestor Elros, brother of Elrond. Arwen described the two of them as 'akin from afar'.

There was in fact a law among Elves banning romantic relationships between people closer than cousins to the second degree (Celeborn and Galadriel were second-cousins, by the way, Galadriel's mother and Celeborn's father being first-cousins).

arynetrek · 12-07-2001, 12:56 AM

like i said, i'm probably overreacting.

so Inoldonil, where do you find your huge wealth of information?

curious,
aryne *

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 12-07-2001, 02:35 AM

Wealth, schmealth. I've got a lot to learn yet, as some other folks here will tell you. But thanks.

I have got most of Tolkien's books that surrounds his mythology (though I have not read all of the ones I have), so I have the sources. I'm missing two HoMe books and the Road Goes Ever On. I have too much time to read and I take too much advantage of that.

As for Celeborn and Galadriel's relationship, that there is a kinship may be deduced from the Silmarillion text. Galadriel is the daughter of EÃ¤rwen, daughter of Olwe, who is the brother of Elwe. And Celeborn is described as a kinsman of Elwe. So it must follow that Galadriel and Celeborn are akin. To get a good look at Tolkien's ideas about their relationship, you need Unfinished Tales, War of the Jewels and The Peoples of Middle-earth. Actually Unfinished Tales will give you a good enough idea: the idea that is consistent with the Lord of the Rings, and the one that is not, but War of the Jewels gives information about an earlier idea that is still consistent with the LotR and Peoples of Middle-earth has more to say for the inconsistent one. The texts concerned are the Galadriel and Celeborn section in UT, The Shibboleth of FÃ«anor in PoMe and one of the late chapters in WotJ, I don't remember which, it's one of the passages dealing with the Annals of Beleriand, I think.

Anyway the genealogy is this: King Greymantle of Doriath had two brothers: Olwe and Elmo. Olwe's daughter was Earwen and Elmo's son was Galadhon. Galadhon and Earwen were thus cousins. Earwen married Finarfin and their daughter was Galadriel, Galadhon married somebody and one of their sons was Celeborn.

The other son of Galadhon was Galathil. His daughter was Nimloth, who was mother of Elwing, mother of Elrond and Elros.

Elrond had a fascinating twisted web of ancestors. His wife CelebrÃ*an was his fourth cousin once removed, on the Grey-elven side of the family.

olorin · 12-11-2001, 03:39 AM

That is really incredible (and helpful) Inoldonil.
This is a little off topic, but what would be the longest marriage in ME? My guess would be Celeborn/Galadriel's, because it lasted through all the ages, and then throughout time in Aman.

Kirinki54 · 12-11-2001, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by olorin
That is really incredible (and helpful) Inoldonil.
This is a little off topic, but what would be the longest marriage in ME? My guess would be Celeborn/Galadriel's, because it lasted through all the ages, and then throughout time in Aman.

Well, Inoldonil canÂ´t deny his knowledge by using famous proverbs like "Wealt Schmealth"! Not credible!

As for the longest marriage, would that not be some couple from the original trek from ME to Valinor. Some of the Vanyar perhaps? Just guessing. As for being married IN Middle-Earth, perhaps you are right.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 12-15-2001, 01:13 AM

LOL about schmealth, Kirinki.

I wonder if Elven marriages were considered to continue after 'death'? If the sprits of the first two Elves to awaken (Imin and IminyÃ«) went to Mandos after whatever death they may have suffered -- and remained there -- they could conceivably be the longest-married couple.

Wayfarer · 12-15-2001, 04:03 PM

No.

Remember Finwe? His first wife died, and was concievably less than a few day's walk from him (in Mandos, whereas he lived in Tirion). As soon as she died, he married that Vanyar girl, and caused that really big family fued, that ended with everybody dying, and those jewels, and morgoth, remember?

So... elven marriges only last when both are incarnate.

12-01-2001, 06:17 PM	#1
Quickbeam Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 35	arwen aragorn elrond and galdriel I know that arwen, aragorn, elrond, and galadriel are all connected somehow, but how does all that lineage work?

12-01-2001, 06:50 PM	#3
Bacchus Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Houston TX USA Posts: 245	But wait, there's more! Elrond's great grandfather was Turgon, son of Fingolfin. Fingolfin's brother Finarfin was Galadriel's father. (According to the Silmarillion, anyway. I know the Noldorin houses were garbled in the Sil, but I think that Galadriel's parentage was unchanged). __________________ Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

12-01-2001, 08:51 PM	#4
Quickbeam Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 35	how? then how is aragorn a human, adn elrond an elf?

12-01-2001, 10:00 PM	#6
rashbold Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 26	The descent of Aragorn As was already mentioned, Elrond and Elros are brothers, and they were the sons of EÃ¤rendil, the son of Tuor and Idril, and Elwing, the daughter of Dior and Nimloth. Tuor was the son of Huor of the Third House of the Edain (RÃan was his mother). Idril was the daughter of Turgon of the House of FinwÃ« (ElenwÃ« of the Vanyar was her mother). Dior was the son of Beren and LÃºthien. Although he can be considered as the first of the Half-elven (Pereldar), he was not given the power to choose his kindred and doom. Nimloth was of the kin of Celeborn (although the relation is somewhat blurred due to varying accounts--one account even had her as Celeborn's sister!). Now, Elrond and Elros were given the power to choose, as did EÃ¤rendil and Elwing, to what kindred they will be judge in the End. Elrond chose to be with the Eldar, but Elros, chose to be judged as a mortal Man. He was given the grace of long life, to five hundred years, and became the first King of NÃºmenor. Elendil was his descendant through SilmariÃ«n, the sister of Tar-Elendil the third King. Elendil had two sons, Isildur and AnÃ¡rion. From AnÃ¡rion were descended the Kings of Gondor, a line which died out with the disappearance of EÃ¤rnur in TA 2050. From Isildur were descended the Kings of Arnor, the Kings of Arthedian and the Chieftains of the Northern DÃºnedain. During the War of the Ring, that Chieftain was Aragorn. Now Elrond wed CelebrÃan the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel sometime during the Second Age, and their children were Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen. So indeed, Aragorn and Arwen were indeed akin from afar. __________________ Rashbold, Lambengolmo RÃ³mello

12-01-2001, 10:55 PM	#8
Finmandos12 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Tampa Posts: 327	It's weird to think that Galadriel is Elrond's mother in law. __________________ The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

12-01-2001, 06:20 PM	#2
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	Elrond married Galadriels Daughter who gave birth to Arwen. Aragorn is a descendent of Elros, brother of Elrond.

12-01-2001, 09:19 PM	#5
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	Elros and Elrond are only Half-Elven, sometime in their life they had to choose what race they wanted to be, Elros chose the fate of men and Elrond choose the fate of the Elves. Elros then went on to become king of Numenor.

12-01-2001, 10:45 PM	#7
Elrond Sapling Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 9	Plus I am married to Celeborn's Daughter

12-02-2001, 12:28 AM	#9
Gwaihir Sapling Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3	I am not sure that they are mother and son. I think they are Mother in law and son

12-02-2001, 12:29 AM	#10
Gwaihir Sapling Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3	Whoops sorry sorry about that bit of repetition, forgot what he said.

12-06-2001, 02:21 AM	#12
arynetrek Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 610	family squabbles among the Elves? um, remember Sil, anyone? shall i start giving names? something i find a little strange among the Elves is how relaxed they seem to be about "closely knitting" families - for example, the knot of people we're talking about. no matter how many years were between us, i (as a 20th century person in america) would still feel weird about marrying my uncle's great-great-etc-etc. grandson. wondering if that makes any sense, aryne * Last edited by arynetrek : 12-06-2001 at 02:32 AM.

12-06-2001, 03:03 PM	#13
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Aragorn was at least 20 generations removed, and I'd lean towards more. It's not like they were marrying a close relative. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-06-2001, 09:41 PM	#14
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Certainly not. All the Kings of NÃºmenÃ³r, Rulers of AndÃºniÃ«, Kings of Gondor and Arnor and Chieftains of the DÃºnedain for some five thousand years lie between Aragorn and his ancestor Elros, brother of Elrond. Arwen described the two of them as 'akin from afar'. There was in fact a law among Elves banning romantic relationships between people closer than cousins to the second degree (Celeborn and Galadriel were second-cousins, by the way, Galadriel's mother and Celeborn's father being first-cousins). __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-07-2001, 12:56 AM	#15
arynetrek Elf Lord Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 610	like i said, i'm probably overreacting. so Inoldonil, where do you find your huge wealth of information? curious, aryne *

12-07-2001, 02:35 AM	#16
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Wealth, schmealth. I've got a lot to learn yet, as some other folks here will tell you. But thanks. I have got most of Tolkien's books that surrounds his mythology (though I have not read all of the ones I have), so I have the sources. I'm missing two HoMe books and the Road Goes Ever On. I have too much time to read and I take too much advantage of that. As for Celeborn and Galadriel's relationship, that there is a kinship may be deduced from the Silmarillion text. Galadriel is the daughter of EÃ¤rwen, daughter of Olwe, who is the brother of Elwe. And Celeborn is described as a kinsman of Elwe. So it must follow that Galadriel and Celeborn are akin. To get a good look at Tolkien's ideas about their relationship, you need Unfinished Tales, War of the Jewels and The Peoples of Middle-earth. Actually Unfinished Tales will give you a good enough idea: the idea that is consistent with the Lord of the Rings, and the one that is not, but War of the Jewels gives information about an earlier idea that is still consistent with the LotR and Peoples of Middle-earth has more to say for the inconsistent one. The texts concerned are the Galadriel and Celeborn section in UT, The Shibboleth of FÃ«anor in PoMe and one of the late chapters in WotJ, I don't remember which, it's one of the passages dealing with the Annals of Beleriand, I think. Anyway the genealogy is this: King Greymantle of Doriath had two brothers: Olwe and Elmo. Olwe's daughter was Earwen and Elmo's son was Galadhon. Galadhon and Earwen were thus cousins. Earwen married Finarfin and their daughter was Galadriel, Galadhon married somebody and one of their sons was Celeborn. The other son of Galadhon was Galathil. His daughter was Nimloth, who was mother of Elwing, mother of Elrond and Elros. Elrond had a fascinating twisted web of ancestors. His wife CelebrÃ*an was his fourth cousin once removed, on the Grey-elven side of the family. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-11-2001, 03:39 AM	#17
olorin Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 38	hmmmm That is really incredible (and helpful) Inoldonil. This is a little off topic, but what would be the longest marriage in ME? My guess would be Celeborn/Galadriel's, because it lasted through all the ages, and then throughout time in Aman. __________________ All that's gold does not glitter Not all who wander are lost The old that is strong does not wither Deep roots are not reached by the frost.....

12-15-2001, 01:13 AM	#19
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	LOL about schmealth, Kirinki. I wonder if Elven marriages were considered to continue after 'death'? If the sprits of the first two Elves to awaken (Imin and IminyÃ«) went to Mandos after whatever death they may have suffered -- and remained there -- they could conceivably be the longest-married couple. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-15-2001, 04:03 PM	#20
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	No. Remember Finwe? His first wife died, and was concievably less than a few day's walk from him (in Mandos, whereas he lived in Tirion). As soon as she died, he married that Vanyar girl, and caused that really big family fued, that ended with everybody dying, and those jewels, and morgoth, remember? So... elven marriges only last when both are incarnate. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 12-17-2001 at 04:11 PM.