elves and fading

afro-elf · 11-22-2001, 08:54 PM

elves that fade become "invisible" to the real world

BUT are faded elves visible to each other

are there communites of faded ones?

Lightice · 11-23-2001, 09:37 AM

Isn't that "fading" symbolic? That they leave Middle Earth and their culture fades away from sight of mortals. Not that they actually would become invisible or shadowlike.
And yes, hello. I'm new on these forums. Looks more interesting than most of LOTR forums.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-23-2001, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
elves that fade become "invisible" to the real world

BUT are faded elves visible to each other

are there communites of faded ones?

I do not know if they are visible to each other, but I don't think they had communities. They were unhappy, and they wanted to be visible and would attempt to occupy other things. Not sure if Tolkien states it, but the Borrow Weights in LOTRs could have been such a thing.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-23-2001, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lightice
Isn't that "fading" symbolic? That they leave Middle Earth and their culture fades away from sight of mortals. Not that they actually would become invisible or shadowlike.
And yes, hello. I'm new on these forums. Looks more interesting than most of LOTR forums.

No Lightice, the word fading is used literally. Our local scholar Inoldonil could probably explain it better, but the Elves were consumed from within by their spirits. That was the whole purpose of the rings was to ward off the effects of time. If they remained in Middle-earth, they would fade.

afro-elf · 11-23-2001, 10:42 AM

well i'm thinking about the elves who still "flourished" in the early 4th age

the woodland realm and EAST lorien

they all lived in a REALM. so say by the 5th age did these faded REALMS exist unto them selves?

Ñólendil · 11-23-2001, 05:44 PM

Welcome Lightice! Don't let them fool you with that 'scholar' business, I couldn't explain it any better than Sister Golden Hair.

Lightice · 11-25-2001, 02:42 PM

Umm...I don't ever remember seeing any references into literal fading...where can they be found?
And wan't it so, that when elf dies, he/she rebirths at Immortal Lands, so if "faded" elf dies, is he still faded at Valinor?

Wayfarer · 11-25-2001, 04:08 PM

Nope. The eventual result of fading was that the elf became disincarnate, basically a ghost. When the went to aman, they stayed in Mandos, as 'ghosts' until they were deemed worthy of reincarnation. Then they got a new body.

Ñólendil · 11-25-2001, 04:29 PM

The best information on the subject Lightice can be found in an essay called Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, published in Part One of the History of the Silmarillion, in the History of Middle-earth (HoMe) series. It is Volume X and is called Morgoth's Ring.

I would not say that they were disincarnate Shannon. I mean: there were Elvish spirits who remained in Middle-earth after 'death', refusing the summons to Aman, these are really the disincarnates. Fades Elves just sort of faded away; their bodies became invisable to our eyes.

afro-elf · 11-25-2001, 06:36 PM

but could the faded elves see each other

Ñólendil · 11-26-2001, 01:08 AM

Yes. As much as one Ringwraith sees another without the aid of physical clothes.

Elvellon · 11-30-2001, 09:11 AM

One of Tolkien early ideas was that the Fading started when the number of humans became greater that the number of elves. This is curious, and implies that the human numbers were starting to became greater that those of elves during the late Third Era.

Finmandos12 · 12-01-2001, 10:29 PM

Quote:

One of Tolkien early ideas was that the Fading started when the number of humans became greater that the number of elves. This is curious, and implies that the human numbers were starting to became greater that those of elves during the late Third Era.

What's "curious" about that? There is no dispute that there were more men than elves by then.

Wayfarer · 12-02-2001, 04:32 PM

Yes, anbd prolly before then.

Also, there are elves implied to have faded in the second and third ages. Daeron and Maglor (but do depressed minstrels count?)

11-22-2001, 08:54 PM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	elves and fading elves that fade become "invisible" to the real world BUT are faded elves visible to each other are there communites of faded ones? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-23-2001, 10:42 AM	#5
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	well i'm thinking about the elves who still "flourished" in the early 4th age the woodland realm and EAST lorien they all lived in a REALM. so say by the 5th age did these faded REALMS exist unto them selves? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-23-2001, 05:44 PM	#6
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Welcome Lightice! Don't let them fool you with that 'scholar' business, I couldn't explain it any better than Sister Golden Hair. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-25-2001, 04:08 PM	#8
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Nope. The eventual result of fading was that the elf became disincarnate, basically a ghost. When the went to aman, they stayed in Mandos, as 'ghosts' until they were deemed worthy of reincarnation. Then they got a new body. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-25-2001, 04:29 PM	#9
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	The best information on the subject Lightice can be found in an essay called Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, published in Part One of the History of the Silmarillion, in the History of Middle-earth (HoMe) series. It is Volume X and is called Morgoth's Ring. I would not say that they were disincarnate Shannon. I mean: there were Elvish spirits who remained in Middle-earth after 'death', refusing the summons to Aman, these are really the disincarnates. Fades Elves just sort of faded away; their bodies became invisable to our eyes. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-23-2001, 09:37 AM	#2
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	Isn't that "fading" symbolic? That they leave Middle Earth and their culture fades away from sight of mortals. Not that they actually would become invisible or shadowlike. And yes, hello. I'm new on these forums. Looks more interesting than most of LOTR forums.

11-25-2001, 02:42 PM	#7
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	Umm...I don't ever remember seeing any references into literal fading...where can they be found? And wan't it so, that when elf dies, he/she rebirths at Immortal Lands, so if "faded" elf dies, is he still faded at Valinor?

11-25-2001, 06:36 PM	#10
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	but could the faded elves see each other __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-26-2001, 01:08 AM	#11
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Yes. As much as one Ringwraith sees another without the aid of physical clothes. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-30-2001, 09:11 AM	#12
Elvellon Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Lindon Posts: 637	One of Tolkien early ideas was that the Fading started when the number of humans became greater that the number of elves. This is curious, and implies that the human numbers were starting to became greater that those of elves during the late Third Era. __________________ **************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion

12-02-2001, 04:32 PM	#14
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Yes, anbd prolly before then. Also, there are elves implied to have faded in the second and third ages. Daeron and Maglor (but do depressed minstrels count?) __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

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