4th age

[afro-elf]

it is said that the 4th age was the beginning of the age of men

as a gamer ( the anticipation for deciher's game is driving me crazy)

i was a saddened by this "common idea" that the non mannish races "just up and faded away"

BUT by reading the appendices it was NOT so bad after all

it seems the dwarves of erebor, the iron hills, and the glittering caves continued long

the elves of thraindruil prospered and the people of lorien moved to east lorien

and celeborn and the sons of elrond dwelt at rivedell

and there where the elves that legolas brought to ithelin


and the hobbits seemed to do well


however

it seems that when arwen died

lorien was deserted

and AT LEAST no more ships sailed from the grey havens
though PERHAPS some elves who loved middle earth MAY have stayed

nothing is mentioned about moria being recolonized

[Snowdog]

I always thought it was the Age of the Dominion of men, and the other races declined whereas men advanced. I never considered that the other races were gone, just stayed in ever more remote places of the worlkd and gradually ceased to mingle with men.

[Ñólendil]

Actually Mória was recolonized by Durin VII, the Last Durin, a descendant of Thorin III Stonehelm. The exact date is not known, but it occurred in the Fourth Age. This is said in a text by Tolkien that did not make it into the Appendices by accident. Christopher T. printed it in Peoples of Middle-earth. After Durin VII remade Khazad-dum, he dwelt there, and his descendants after him, until the time of his race was ended.

As for the Grey Havens, what Arwen actually says is "there is not now any ship that would bear me hence" [to the Blessed Realm]. It is entirely possible that there were still ships at the Grey Havens, but none of them were allowed to take Arwen, who had made her irrevocable choice to be mortal.

[markedel]

And one would assume that some elves remained scattered about especially silvan elves for several centuries.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Actually Mória was recolonized by Durin VII, the Last Durin, a descendant of Thorin III Stonehelm. The exact date is not known, but it occurred in the Fourth Age. This is said in a text by Tolkien that did not make it into the Appendices by accident. Christopher T. printed it in Peoples of Middle-earth. After Durin VII remade Khazad-dum, he dwelt there, and his descendants after him, until the time of his race was ended.

As for the Grey Havens, what Arwen actually says is "there is not now any ship that would bear me hence" [to the Blessed Realm]. It is entirely possible that there were still ships at the Grey Havens, but none of them were allowed to take Arwen, who had made her irrevocable choice to be mortal.

Both Sam and Celeborn sailed from the Grey Havens, so we know that ships were still leaving the ports in the Fourth Age, but we don't know when the last one sailed. Arwen's comment is, of course, based on the fact that she had chosen mortality. There is a poem in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, about a Gondorian maiden named Firiel, who is invited to sail over Sea by some Elves. She steps into the water but her feet sink into mud, and she realizes that she cannot leave the mortal world.

I think that poem is supposed to signify how Arwen felt.

[Michael Martinez]

Someone pointed out a passage yesterday in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", which indicates that Rivendell was deserted by the time of Aragorn's death (Fourth Age 120). If that is the case, then Celeborn must have already departed from Middle-earth by then.

Mithlond could have become deserted after his departure. It could have been deserted before his departure, meaning he would have to build his own ship (as Legolas did).

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Both Sam and Celeborn sailed from the Grey Havens....

They might be and might be not.

We already discussed such possibilty.
I'm too lazy to type it all over, but here is a copy of my reply

My HO is that Celeborn ultimately stayed in the Middle-earth. If you will compare Tolkien's phraseology about the last sailed to the West Noldor, you will see the difference in the way of wording.
About Cirdan: "...some say he dwells there until the Last Ship sets sail into the West" - this is an AFFIRMATION that he eventually left Middle-earth.
About Celeborn: "...but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens" - and this is a SUGGESTION that he never sailed West.
My impression is that by the way of saying in such unsertain wordage JRRT wanted us to think that some of the royal-elves still linger in ME.
Besides, if he (Celeborn) could live through 4 ages, why he cannot linger through a couple of more?
Seems that Tolkien was making very plausible connections suggesting that Middle-earth is Europe before the world had changed. I have, I supose, constructed an imaginary TIME, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for PLACE" , for many hundreds years ago people, who were living on this continent called it the Middleerthe .
Besides in Letter #211 Tolkien states:
""I imagine the gap [between the Fall of Barad-dur and modern times] to be about 6000 years; that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as Second Age and Third Age. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh."

The " open" option to sail West got closed with the last ship. Considering that the Grey Havens and the most of the elve's dvellings became deserted somewhere in the beginning of the 4 Age , that option was not indefinite.
Some of the Elves, who in the past decided to postpone their departure, found that they indefinitelly late and now, even if they would greatly desired to pass into the West, they had no means to do so.
As time went by with the beginning of the new age and an extensive mass-emigration of the Elves, it was not many places left, where you can build the ship, nor you can found a craftsmen , who knew how to do it.
I assume, that under guidance, providing material and helping hands, you can build a ship in any place, like Legolas did, but since it will be more and more difficult to find such guidance, it will take much longer time eventually ceasing to nothing.
.." There is now no ship that would bear me hence ", ( LOTR. App. A ) regretfully says Arwen, and it is sad truth in her words: too late not only for her, but for others of her kindred, like Thranduil or Celeborn .
As Lefty Scaevola noticed that the passage about Celeborn "and with him went the last living memory of the elder days in Middle-Earth" suggest that all other persons of the first age (Cirdan, any other first age elves, Fangorn, and Bombadil!?) had left ME before him.
All this implies that Celeborn lingered on ME longer than Fangorn, which believed to live through the Fourth Age.
Considering that the Last Ship sailed at the beginning of F.A. ,and since it was no any mentions that such notable figure sailed away 100 years later with supposedly the last boat made by Legolas and Gimli, you cann't help to come to conclusion that Celeborn, outliving Threebeard, continued to live on Middle-earth untill he eventually "fade away".

Here goes a pure speculation:
Tolkien implies that even in "faded" state some elves can make possible for certain humans to see and to hear them.
By saying so, was J.R.R.T giving us a hint that somehow he was the one who had "the encounter"?
So, look out for pointy ears!!

[Attalus]

My take on the "Faded elves" was that it was a description of the supposed smallness and difficulty of finding elves and fairies that he mocks so in "On Fairy-Stories."

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

:
:
:
Here goes a pure speculation:
Tolkien implies that even in "faded" state some elves can make possible for certain humans to see and to hear them.
By saying so, was J.R.R.T giving us a hint that somehow he was the one who had "the encounter"?
So, look out for pointy ears!!

Well, the last time he logged on around HERE was December 15, 2001 anyway!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Well, the last time he logged on around HERE was December 15, 2001 anyway!

No-o-!!!
You mean he faded away even from the Moot-board?
Old trickster!

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Olmer

About Celeborn: "...but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens" - and this is a SUGGESTION that he never sailed West.

Nope. It's an assertion that Celeborn's departure from Middle-earth was undocumented. Nothing more.

Seems that Tolkien was making very plausible connections suggesting that Middle-earth is Europe before the world had changed. I have, I supose, constructed an imaginary TIME, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for PLACE" , for many hundreds years ago people, who were living on this continent called it the Middleerthe .

Tolkien wrote in numerous places that Middle-earth was the entire world. It was not simply Europe, but all of Earth (our Earth, "round and inescapable").

As Lefty Scaevola noticed that the passage about Celeborn "and with him went the last living memory of the elder days in Middle-Earth" suggest that all other persons of the first age (Cirdan, any other first age elves, Fangorn, and Bombadil!?) had left ME before him.

All Tolkien meant by that passage was that Celeborn was, at the time of his departure, the last person living in Middle-earth who remembered the Elder Days (specifically, the Elvish histories of that period -- Fangorn could have still been alive, and Bombadil was probably still around, but neither of them seem to have played any role in the Wars of Beleriand -- Celeborn, at the time Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings, is supposed to have played some part, although he isn't portrayed as very active in The Silmarillion).

[Haradrim]

My take on ME in this world is this. We have all heard of the super-continent Pangea. Well researchers know for a fact that there were other supercontinets before that time. How do we know that ME was not simply on of those mega continents. I mean its entirley possiblee actually> The whole magic thig isnt but everything else is. What happened was that elves except for certain ones. co(Celeborn)ugh Celeborn I think eventually intermingled with our race and that descendants fo his coulds still be possible.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Nope. It's an assertion that Celeborn's departure from Middle-earth was undocumented. Nothing more.

Since JRRT decided to leave it undocumented it seems to me a very thin veiled suggestion that Celeborn might had never departed.

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Tolkien wrote in numerous places that Middle-earth was the entire world. It was not simply Europe, but all of Earth (our Earth, "round and inescapable").

Of course it's entire world! I should put it in more clear way that JRRT wrote about the events which happened in the certain location of the Middle-earth(suggesting that it could be Europe at present time). After all it's wast and uncharted lands behind the the Sea of Rhun and Harad.

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

All Tolkien meant by that passage was that Celeborn was, at the time of his departure, the last person living in Middle-earth who remembered the Elder Days (specifically, the Elvish histories of that period .

Nope. The Elder Days by Tolkien's meaning it's a history of the Middle Earth in whole, and not just Elvish history.

Originally Posted by Haradrim

We have all heard of the super-continent Pangea. Well researchers know for a fact that there were other supercontinets before that time. How do we know that ME was not simply on of those mega continents. I mean its entirley possiblee actually> The whole magic thig isnt but everything else is. What happened was that elves except for certain ones. co(Celeborn)ugh Celeborn I think eventually intermingled with our race and that descendants fo his coulds still be possible.

Everything is possible. We still know too little about our past and the discoveries (such like the "Hobbit" or the legendary city of Troy) demonstrate that no certain assumptions can be made.
I think that in the future with our abilities to reach the depest parts of the ocean it will be more astounding findings about an ancient time of the Earth.
By the way , some of Tolkien's stories, like "The Lost Road" , carry an idea of the possibility that the existence of the Middle earth some day will be "rediscovered".
And "the whole magic thing" is nothing but an unutilized human potentials .
As I said before, the biologists discovered that we are using only 3 % of our genotype of the whole DNA informationin the cells . Imagine how unlimited will be our potentials if with time we will learn to use the whole our genetic pool! Just like Elves .

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Since JRRT decided to leave it undocumented it seems to me a very thin veiled suggestion that Celeborn might had never departed.

I think it says he did in the Appendice but I can't remember. All I know is that it says somewhere that he did.

[Manveru]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

My take on ME in this world is this. We have all heard of the super-continent Pangea. Well researchers know for a fact that there were other supercontinets before that time. How do we know that ME was not simply on of those mega continents. I mean its entirley possiblee actually> The whole magic thig isnt but everything else is. What happened was that elves except for certain ones. co(Celeborn)ugh Celeborn I think eventually intermingled with our race and that descendants fo his coulds still be possible.

so maybe gondor was conquered by dinasaurs sometime at the end of the fourth age

[Wayfarer]

Or maybe Gondor reached the peak of its development and entered a period of decline, like every other great civilzation to have appeared upont he earth.

The thing to keep in mind before making a sarcastic comment like that is that the notion of a 'lost empire' is pervasive - it can be found in the history of nearly every people group.

[ItalianLegolas]

so are you saying that Tolkien was an elf who actually witnessed all of this stuff happening???

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

so are you saying that Tolkien was an elf who actually witnessed all of this stuff happening???

Just thinking that before you some of my ideas was labeled as "bizarre"...

[Manveru]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Or maybe Gondor reached the peak of its development and entered a period of decline, like every other great civilzation to have appeared upont he earth.

The thing to keep in mind before making a sarcastic comment like that is that the notion of a 'lost empire' is pervasive - it can be found in the history of nearly every people group.

haha ya i know i was just joking (Numenor was originally an 'Atlantis' myth)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

it is yet even possible that an oxford professor stumbled upon ancient texts,
telling of a land where many great deeds took place, before a tumultuous
event led to the submersion of this land - and this text formed the basis
of the silmarillion, and hobbit and lotr are thence a sort of fanfic, for
lack of a more appropriate word.

but that is just mere speculation!