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#1 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
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4th age
it is said that the 4th age was the beginning of the age of men
as a gamer ( the anticipation for deciher's game is driving me crazy) i was a saddened by this "common idea" that the non mannish races "just up and faded away" BUT by reading the appendices it was NOT so bad after all it seems the dwarves of erebor, the iron hills, and the glittering caves continued long the elves of thraindruil prospered and the people of lorien moved to east lorien and celeborn and the sons of elrond dwelt at rivedell and there where the elves that legolas brought to ithelin and the hobbits seemed to do well however it seems that when arwen died lorien was deserted and AT LEAST no more ships sailed from the grey havens though PERHAPS some elves who loved middle earth MAY have stayed nothing is mentioned about moria being recolonized
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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#2 |
Dúnedain Ranger of the North
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: The Ruins of Arnor
Posts: 892
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I always thought it was the Age of the Dominion of men, and the other races declined whereas men advanced. I never considered that the other races were gone, just stayed in ever more remote places of the worlkd and gradually ceased to mingle with men.
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"I am an outlaw, I was born an outlaw's son. The highway is my legacy, on the highway I will run." |
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#3 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
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Actually Mória was recolonized by Durin VII, the Last Durin, a descendant of Thorin III Stonehelm. The exact date is not known, but it occurred in the Fourth Age. This is said in a text by Tolkien that did not make it into the Appendices by accident. Christopher T. printed it in Peoples of Middle-earth. After Durin VII remade Khazad-dum, he dwelt there, and his descendants after him, until the time of his race was ended.
As for the Grey Havens, what Arwen actually says is "there is not now any ship that would bear me hence" [to the Blessed Realm]. It is entirely possible that there were still ships at the Grey Havens, but none of them were allowed to take Arwen, who had made her irrevocable choice to be mortal.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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#4 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Queen's
Posts: 1,245
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And one would assume that some elves remained scattered about especially silvan elves for several centuries.
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"Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom" |
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#5 | |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
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I think that poem is supposed to signify how Arwen felt. |
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#6 |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
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Someone pointed out a passage yesterday in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", which indicates that Rivendell was deserted by the time of Aragorn's death (Fourth Age 120). If that is the case, then Celeborn must have already departed from Middle-earth by then.
Mithlond could have become deserted after his departure. It could have been deserted before his departure, meaning he would have to build his own ship (as Legolas did). |
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#7 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
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Quote:
We already discussed such possibilty. I'm too lazy to type it all over, but here is a copy of my reply ![]() My HO is that Celeborn ultimately stayed in the Middle-earth. If you will compare Tolkien's phraseology about the last sailed to the West Noldor, you will see the difference in the way of wording. About Cirdan: "...some say he dwells there until the Last Ship sets sail into the West" - this is an AFFIRMATION that he eventually left Middle-earth. About Celeborn: "...but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens" - and this is a SUGGESTION that he never sailed West. My impression is that by the way of saying in such unsertain wordage JRRT wanted us to think that some of the royal-elves still linger in ME. Besides, if he (Celeborn) could live through 4 ages, why he cannot linger through a couple of more? Seems that Tolkien was making very plausible connections suggesting that Middle-earth is Europe before the world had changed. I have, I supose, constructed an imaginary TIME, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for PLACE" , for many hundreds years ago people, who were living on this continent called it the Middleerthe . Besides in Letter #211 Tolkien states: ""I imagine the gap [between the Fall of Barad-dur and modern times] to be about 6000 years; that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as Second Age and Third Age. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh." The " open" option to sail West got closed with the last ship. Considering that the Grey Havens and the most of the elve's dvellings became deserted somewhere in the beginning of the 4 Age , that option was not indefinite. Some of the Elves, who in the past decided to postpone their departure, found that they indefinitelly late and now, even if they would greatly desired to pass into the West, they had no means to do so. As time went by with the beginning of the new age and an extensive mass-emigration of the Elves, it was not many places left, where you can build the ship, nor you can found a craftsmen , who knew how to do it. I assume, that under guidance, providing material and helping hands, you can build a ship in any place, like Legolas did, but since it will be more and more difficult to find such guidance, it will take much longer time eventually ceasing to nothing. .." There is now no ship that would bear me hence ", ( LOTR. App. A ) regretfully says Arwen, and it is sad truth in her words: too late not only for her, but for others of her kindred, like Thranduil or Celeborn . As Lefty Scaevola noticed that the passage about Celeborn "and with him went the last living memory of the elder days in Middle-Earth" suggest that all other persons of the first age (Cirdan, any other first age elves, Fangorn, and Bombadil!?) had left ME before him. All this implies that Celeborn lingered on ME longer than Fangorn, which believed to live through the Fourth Age. Considering that the Last Ship sailed at the beginning of F.A. ,and since it was no any mentions that such notable figure sailed away 100 years later with supposedly the last boat made by Legolas and Gimli, you cann't help to come to conclusion that Celeborn, outliving Threebeard, continued to live on Middle-earth untill he eventually "fade away". Here goes a pure speculation: Tolkien implies that even in "faded" state some elves can make possible for certain humans to see and to hear them. By saying so, was J.R.R.T giving us a hint that somehow he was the one who had "the encounter"? So, look out for pointy ears!! ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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#8 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
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My take on the "Faded elves" was that it was a description of the supposed smallness and difficulty of finding elves and fairies that he mocks so in "On Fairy-Stories."
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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#9 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#10 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
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You mean he faded away even from the Moot-board? Old trickster! ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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#11 | |||
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
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#12 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Far Harad
Posts: 1,006
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My take on ME in this world is this. We have all heard of the super-continent Pangea. Well researchers know for a fact that there were other supercontinets before that time. How do we know that ME was not simply on of those mega continents. I mean its entirley possiblee actually> The whole magic thig isnt but everything else is. What happened was that elves except for certain ones. co(Celeborn)ugh Celeborn I think eventually intermingled with our race and that descendants fo his coulds still be possible.
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A Bit More Grown Up This Time... |
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#13 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
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I think that in the future with our abilities to reach the depest parts of the ocean it will be more astounding findings about an ancient time of the Earth. By the way , some of Tolkien's stories, like "The Lost Road" , carry an idea of the possibility that the existence of the Middle earth some day will be "rediscovered". And "the whole magic thing" is nothing but an unutilized human potentials . As I said before, the biologists discovered that we are using only 3 % of our genotype of the whole DNA informationin the cells . Imagine how unlimited will be our potentials if with time we will learn to use the whole our genetic pool! Just like Elves . ![]() Last edited by Olmer : 11-29-2004 at 10:10 AM. |
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#14 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#15 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 256
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Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland |
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#16 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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Or maybe Gondor reached the peak of its development and entered a period of decline, like every other great civilzation to have appeared upont he earth.
The thing to keep in mind before making a sarcastic comment like that is that the notion of a 'lost empire' is pervasive - it can be found in the history of nearly every people group.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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#17 |
Tolkien-aholic
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ...
Posts: 712
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so are you saying that Tolkien was an elf who actually witnessed all of this stuff happening???
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What was lost is now found. |
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#18 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
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#19 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 256
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Quote:
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Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland |
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#20 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
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![]() it is yet even possible that an oxford professor stumbled upon ancient texts,
telling of a land where many great deeds took place, before a tumultuous event led to the submersion of this land - and this text formed the basis of the silmarillion, and hobbit and lotr are thence a sort of fanfic, for lack of a more appropriate word. but that is just mere speculation! ![]() |
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