Some thoughts about our place in Earth's history

[Lief Erikson]

I have some thoughts about humanity's place in Earth history that I want to share . You can consider this a little old-style Humanism from Lief. I mean old style because originally, for instance, in the 16th and 17th centuries, humanism was about seeing humanity's place in God's creative design. It was about glorifying God by understanding what He has done in humanity; it was not about eliminating God.

I’ve heard many negative things about humans, and very, very little meditation on a more complete perspective on our place in Earth history.

My friends, we are part of the most magnificent species ever to exist in Earth's history. And we are living in one of the most extraordinary periods in Earth's history, rendered so extraordinary because of our place in it.

Some species are superior to ours in some of their physical characteristics. For instance, we don’t have echolocation or wings. However, no species can come remotely close to matching our intelligence or our gift for imagination. Our minds are a miracle of the most beautiful evolution. Think about it; Selah!

No species other than ours is capable of so much love and goodness. There could never be a Mother Teresa of Calcutta anywhere in the animal kingdom, or a St. Francis of Assisi. The selfless love that pours from some members of the human race is like a thundering river, or a crashing waterfall, bringing life to many, many people and often animals, too.

No other species is capable of so much creativity or imagination. The Sistine Chapel or the Dome of the Rock have not the remotest comparisons among the animals.

Many species have driven others extinct in the past. We are the first species to ever have members that cared that others were being driven extinct, and tried to do something about it.

Imagine we go extinct. We destroy our species with nuclear weapons or something. In another hundred million years, let’s imagine some new sentient species emerges. This isn’t contradictory to Christian theology – we know that God created sentient species other than us, such as the different species of angels (cherubim, seraphim, etc.). Christianity teaches that we will be resurrected from the dead and given new bodies to live in a new world at the end of time. I’m talking about what happens before the end of time.

This new species begins to study its origins in the rock of the earth, in digs and archaeology. It discovers that humans once lived on Earth. It learns about the dinosaurs and the other species that once existed. It learns, perhaps, that we were responsible for a mass extinction of other life forms on Planet Earth. Do you think that that will be a foremost thought in their mind?

If we discovered sentient life on another world, and then learned that they’d accidentally wiped out, say, a million non-sentient species in the spread of their life, would that be our primary concern? Would we focus on judging them for that? Such things have happened often in world history; what has not happened often is the development of a species that can reason, create, imagine and love to anything approaching the extent we can know and love.

What would this new species think of us? If they were anything like us, they would be amazed. Their imagination would be captured by the knowledge that we once lived and covered the world with the glittering lights of our cities. The planet lights up like a glittering galaxy of jewels when seen from space or from an airplane. No other period in Earth history would be anywhere close to so meaningful to another species. The time of the human race would matter most.

They would want to study our history and archaeology, our evolution, our cultures and societies to the best of their ability. If they looked for their origins at all, it would be nigh impossible to miss us, even that far ahead into the future, for we would have left remnants of our skyscrapers and cities across the world.

No species save ours has ever had anywhere near our ability to deliberately control and decide what to do with the Earth’s resources or future.

We are the first Earth species (except perhaps the Neanderthal) that can make informed moral decisions, for good or evil. Other creatures rely on instinct; we can think through our decisions in a rational way and choose what is good even while desiring what is bad. The teachings of the world’s great moral teachers are only applicable, among all the animal species, to humans, and they only emerged among humans. Only we have the capability to understand and practice a higher standard and moral code beyond ourselves.

What would you and I think if we discovered another civilization in ancient history, sentient like ours? We would be dazzled, our minds gripped in excitement and our hearts with joy.

We are the first species on Earth to be able to thank our Creator for making us, and can try to find Him, understand Him and know Him (except, perhaps, the Neanderthal and some extremely similar sapiens in our recent history).

If one looks at Earth history with care, it becomes obvious that God has directly intervened in the affairs of humans many, many times, often miraculously and supernaturally. This, too, is a first in the history of Earth, as far as we know, and why not? For what other species on Earth was made so gloriously gifted as our own, and which, other than ours, could even know to desire union with the Creator? And, logically enough, those that are most supernaturally gifted and full of love and spiritual beauty are those that come closest to He that created the great world and universe of beauty.

God has raised us so, so high, and He has given us so, so much. And in this list of glories of the human race, I’ve only (deliberately) scratched the surface, for I could go endlessly into the astonishing gifts God gave the Church, and could talk about what God has in store for humanity, and about salvation history, but this would be turning the conversation into one that’s restricted to religious members of Entmoot.

We should all meditate for a moment on our point in history, and on what it means that humans have lived on Planet Earth. Selah.

We are the most amazing and wonderful species that has ever lived on this planet. The history we have made on this planet is the most unique and incredible period in Earth’s history. Even though we cause great destruction and terrible things to happen as well, using our power sometimes wrongly, we should never lose our sense of perspective. We should be grateful, and should thank God, that He has made us as humans, and that He has allowed us to live where He has, how He has, and with the ability to see what we can see.

If anyone here wants to add anything to this, things I didn’t think to mention about how wonderful it is God (or whatever, for the non-religious) has made us who we are, where we are, and about humanity’s unique role in Earth history, I would love to talk about it with you .

[GrayMouser]

I am reminded of the remark attributed to JBS Haldane, the great evolutionary biologist, when asked about what a lifetime's study of creation had revealed to him about the nature of the Creator: "He appears to have an inordinate fondness for beetles."

I mean, I think we are pretty great, too, but then I'm one of us.

No species other than ours is capable of so much love and goodness. There could never be a Mother Teresa of Calcutta anywhere in the animal kingdom, or a St. Francis of Assisi. The selfless love that pours from some members of the human race is like a thundering river, or a crashing waterfall, bringing life to many, many people and often animals, too.

Or so much hatred and evil. The selfish hate that pours from some members of the human race can be pretty thunderous, too.

Many species have driven others extinct in the past. We are the first species to ever have members that cared that others were being driven extinct, and tried to do something about it.

Yes, in direct competiton with one or two species- no other animal has been able to launch an Extinction Level Event against the entire planet- and there are many more members of our species that are driving the process of extinction without much concern for those other species.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

No other species is capable of so much creativity or imagination. The Sistine Chapel or the Dome of the Rock have not the remotest comparisons among the animals.

Something like the Great Barrier Reef far surpasses both of those in size, and many would say in beauty. How about a redwood grove, or a termite city? We might not like it, but I bet the average termite would pick it hands down over our creations.

This new species begins to study its origins in the rock of the earth, in digs and archaeology. It discovers that humans once lived on Earth. It learns about the dinosaurs and the other species that once existed. It learns, perhaps, that we were responsible for a mass extinction of other life forms on Planet Earth. Do you think that that will be a foremost thought in their mind?

If we discovered sentient life on another world, and then learned that they’d accidentally wiped out, say, a million non-sentient species in the spread of their life, would that be our primary concern? Would we focus on judging them for that? Such things have happened often in world history; what has not happened often is the development of a species that can reason, create, imagine and love to anything approaching the extent we can know and love.

If we discovered a form of life that wiped out most others and left a planet fouled, slimed and besmirched with their own waste products? What might we think?

Helen Benson: I need to know what's happening.
Klaatu: This planet is dying. The human race is killing it.
Helen Benson: So you've come here to help us.
Klaatu: No, I didn't.
Helen Benson: You said you came to save us.
Klaatu: I said I came to save the Earth.

[katya]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Something like the Great Barrier Reef far surpasses both of those in size, and many would say in beauty. How about a redwood grove, or a termite city? We might not like it, but I bet the average termite would pick it hands down over our creations.

I'm inclined to think that only humans can really appreciate beauty. And that beauty is largely subjective, and the reef or the chapel aren't really beautiful until observed (in person or in your mind, either way).

[Earniel]

My, quite the sermon...

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I’ve heard many negative things about humans, and very, very little meditation on a more complete perspective on our place in Earth history.

Have you considered that for pretty everything but humanity our actions have been mostly negative? After all, we humans think from a strictly antropocentric viewpoint. We are humanity, so naturally we and all we do must be smashing. But all in all a bit humility is quite necessary, I think. Our 'magnificence' is but a tiny layer of varnish, that is so, so easily scratched off. Our animal side is never far away.

That said, the cretaceous didn't need humanity to be an extraordinary, magnificent geological period all in it's own right. Nature will always be infinitely more diverse and splendid than just humanity, because humanity is but part of the whole. And we ain't the best this planet had to offer in four billion years, not by a long shot.

However, no species can come remotely close to matching our intelligence or our gift for imagination. Our minds are a miracle of the most beautiful evolution.

As far as we know so far, that is. I wouldn't rule out that some species may yet surprise us on that level. Humans, after all, aren't even the biggest brains on the planet. Selfish love, sacrifice, compassion etc... are not just found in humans alone. But we'd like to think it is.

If we discovered sentient life on another world, and then learned that they’d accidentally wiped out, say, a million non-sentient species in the spread of their life, would that be our primary concern? Would we focus on judging them for that?

Isn't it a bit presumptious to assume an unknown intelligent species will focus on our possitive legacy, rather then our negative one? For one, our hypothetical successors may just happen to be deeply ecological-minded... Or have no concept at all of art. Or imagine if the cockroach is going to be the one to inherit the earth. Not such an illogical choice, even. We'd be pretty screwed then.

No other period in Earth history would be anywhere close to so meaningful to another species. The time of the human race would matter most.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. We're just a blink on the geological timeframe. Heck, if enough time has passed since our demise, before the new species arises, they might not even notice we were here.

No species save ours has ever had anywhere near our ability to deliberately control and decide what to do with the Earth’s resources or future.

The question remains whether that's an achievement.

We are the first species on Earth to be able to thank our Creator for making us, and can try to find Him, understand Him and know Him (except, perhaps, the Neanderthal and some extremely similar sapiens in our recent history).

Or the first species capable of such self-delusion.

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

I am reminded of the remark attributed to JBS Haldane, the great evolutionary biologist, when asked about what a lifetime's study of creation had revealed to him about the nature of the Creator: "He appears to have an inordinate fondness for beetles."

Truth be told, I can appreciate that in a creator. Beetles rock.

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Something like the Great Barrier Reef far surpasses both of those in size, and many would say in beauty. How about a redwood grove, or a termite city? We might not like it, but I bet the average termite would pick it hands down over our creations.

Or the tsingy cliffs of Ankarana in Madagaskar, the spires of the Lost City in the Atlantic, the Grand Canyon, the glowing face of the moon? (Yes, I have been watching a lot of documentaries lately.) One cannot begin to name all the magnificent spots on this planet. And that's just this one planet. These things vastly outnumber human creations.

Originally Posted by katya

I'm inclined to think that only humans can really appreciate beauty. And that beauty is largely subjective, and the reef or the chapel aren't really beautiful until observed (in person or in your mind, either way).

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the saying goes. But the saying doesn't specify it has to be a human beholder.

But your second comment threw me off for a moment. I started glancing at the painting behind me, wondering for a moment whether it was ugly when my back is turned towards it.

[Grey_Wolf]

Granted there are aspects of humanity that is admirable. But there equally or even more aspects that is negative. We have made ourselves masters of the world. We think that what we do and think is more important than considering the fate and health of the Earth. Perhaps a nuclear war or some other catastrophy would reduce mankind significantly and perhaps allow the Earth to recover, if not all, but some of it's former pre-human wealth in animals and plants.

[Nerdanel]

Thank you, Eärniel, for saying what I was thinking (but couldn't be bothered to write down ).

(and, indeed beetles rock! but if there was a creator, it would have even greater fondness for non-animals, i think; mainly bacteria. but they rock too, so it's all fine. )

[Lief Erikson]

Friends, you talk about pollution, about our decimation of other species, and our hatred and evil.

I was talking about how magnificent our species is. I wasn't trying to judge how everyone lives up to the potential that being a member of such a wonderful species offers us.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Our 'magnificence' is but a tiny layer of varnish, that is so, so easily scratched off. Our animal side is never far away.

We have the ability to choose whether we will be that animal or not. Humans do not have to be. That is one of the many things that makes our species unique and wonderful.

Some people are morally depraved in a way that makes them far lower than animals. This is an evil they commit against their own species, as well as against so much else, a kind of defiling that takes place. For the nature and capabilities of humanity are very good and make people capable of being so much more and better than wicked people have chosen to be. It is because people are capable of being so much more, but deliberately choose not to be, that their evil is particularly hideous. If they couldn't be anything other than what they are, like the insane, then their actions inherently wrong, but the person who committed them would not be culpable. Whenever humans deliberately choose evil, they assault their very humanity by being less than their species enables them to be.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

That said, the cretaceous didn't need humanity to be an extraordinary, magnificent geological period all in it's own right.

Agreed .

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And we ain't the best this planet had to offer in four billion years, not by a long shot.

That, I strongly disagree with. It seems to me that you are heavily undervaluing, in a mistaken view of humility, the unique characteristics humans have.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

As far as we know so far, that is. I wouldn't rule out that some species may yet surprise us on that level.

You can hypothesize that, but there's no evidence to back the suggestion up.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Humans, after all, aren't even the biggest brains on the planet.

The size of the brain does not denote intelligence, as you well know.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Selfish love, sacrifice, compassion etc... are not just found in humans alone. But we'd like to think it is.

What I said is that the same depth of these characteristics is not found among the animals.

Originally Posted by katya

I'm inclined to think that only humans can really appreciate beauty.

Agreed. There isn't any indication of any animals share this gift.

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Something like the Great Barrier Reef far surpasses both of those in size, and many would say in beauty.

I believe God created in nature many creations vastly more magnificent than the best of our works of art. I have seen nothing, for instance, that can compare to the mesmerizing beauty of a galaxy seen from outer space.

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

How about a redwood grove, or a termite city? We might not like it, but I bet the average termite would pick it hands down over our creations.

The beauty in these is entirely an accident, on the part of the living creatures that built them, and goes unnoticed and unappreciated by these creatures. To the creatures that make these things, they are not even beautiful. The termite would only pick a tree because it's good food and a suitable home to it. In fact, it is only members of our species that might find these more beautiful than the Sistine Chapel or the Dome of the Rock. Neither of these examples can therefore compare to the works of art humans develop. Humans are by far the most creative and imaginative species on Earth.

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Perhaps a nuclear war or some other catastrophy would reduce mankind significantly and perhaps allow the Earth to recover, if not all, but some of it's former pre-human wealth in animals and plants.

And who would be there to appreciate that diversity? No one on Earth. Animals don't have an ascetic sense. No species of fish would miss it if another species of fish, or even many species, disappeared, except insofar as it affected that fish's own daily routine. No one would care if the Earth recovered its biodiversity, if we were gone. So it's ridiculous to think that that might be better.

Humans are the only ones on Earth who care if a species dies out. No vulnerable species even notices that it is going extinct. The members of that species would only notice, "hey, it's hard to find a mate or a place to lay my eggs!" Something that also happens at times to members of species that are not going extinct. That's about as far as it would go for any member of that species.


It seems to me that many of you are ungrateful for the value of human life, and for basic wonderful things we have in life.

Spend a minute, if you will, looking at your hand, flexing the fingers a bit, perhaps, looking at the details, feeling the flesh move. How wonderful that you have this hand! How many things you depend on it for, each day! How elegant is its construction, the muscles, bones, blood, working together in a magnificent symmetry. Atoms are bonded together, dancing, always moving in an endless dance, in that hand. Molecules flow together. You would do well to spend some time appreciating what you have and feeling gratitude in your heart, thanksgiving, that you have that hand.

Last year, while I was meditating, I was embarrassed to realize that I had never really given thanks to God in a serious way even for creating me. For the existence of my life itself, I had not given thanks. I hadn't thought about my conception in the womb, or my life in the womb, or how wonderful it is that I am here, now. My heart is pumping. I am looking at my computer screen, typing, and I'm alive. How wonderful that we live! How wonderful that we can breathe, eat, drink, play, love!

How wonderful that we are sentient as we are! That we have this self-awareness, this understanding of morality (and the ability to put a moral standard above our self-interest), imagination, this gift of reason, this ability to perceive the beauty that is everywhere, this ability to appreciate things that no other species can!

We can unite ourselves with love in a depth that no creature can! Mother Teresa's complete self-sacrifice of love, offering herself up as a holocaust on an altar of sacrifice for the poor, is unparalleled in the animal kingdom. The choice of many people, such as firefighters, police, religious and priests, to live lives of total self-sacrifice for people they don't even know is unparalleled in the animal kingdom. The ability of some humans to love people they don't know is unparalleled. These gifts of love are beyond other species. The emotional and spiritual depth we are capable of is incredible, as are our gifts of intellect and imagination, creativity and appreciation. So let's exercise one of those wonderful gifts that is particular to us by giving thanks!

We shouldn't just get through life. We should see what we have and be glad, and give thanks for it. We need to recover some of that outlook we had as children, when things were new to us, for truly, so much is new to us in the sense that we simply have never really looked at it or appreciated it as we should and can. Let's try to get back that childhood wonder at the world around us.

Don't be dismal or focused on the negative, and ungrateful. I was very surprised by all the negativity I got in response to my post, the drab outlooks, and the choice to focus on negative things.

I urge you to focus only on the negative insofar as is helpful in making it positive. We can't make ourselves or other people happy if we focus on bad things. To bring happiness to others and experience it more ourselves, it helps to try to appreciate all the gifts that we and others have, and which the world offers, and which the universe brilliantly shines with, but which we often ignore or take for granted.

The great and incredible gifts we humans have as a species are one aspect of the beauty of the universe, as you say, Eärniel. The beauty of the universe is everywhere, and we are one part of it, unique on Earth in the splendor of our species. We should give thanks, or at least feel thankful, for that.

I'm sorry if anyone reading this post is offended.

[Grey_Wolf]

Being grateful for the gifts we have been given by evolution is one thing - being careful and tender towards other species another - of course, we are omnivores - we eat anything edible - we devour anything up to the point of extinction. And there is the other aspect of mankind - because of our greed the number of animals and plants in the world have been radically reduced. Is that something to proud of? The vacuuming of the seas, the constant mowing down of the forests of South America, the killing off of predators, the poaching of the african wildlife. As long as man is living off the planet instead of living with it, the steady deminishing of life of Earth will continue.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Nerdanel

Thank you, Eärniel, for saying what I was thinking (but couldn't be bothered to write down ).

Glad to have been of service.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

That, I strongly disagree with. It seems to me that you are heavily undervaluing, in a mistaken view of humility, the unique characteristics humans have.

No, I don't think I do. I value humanity greatly, but I cannot dismiss our low points in favour of our high points. We are capable of magnificent things and just equally capable of the most horrible things imaginable (and we can imagine quite a lot). Without either capacity we wouldn't be humanity.

But to put humanity above everything else is quite something else. I hold humanity dear, very dear, but it comes with warts and all. A bit like a toad. And I happen to value toads too.

You can hypothesize that, but there's no evidence to back the suggestion up.

Yet. We don't have the evidence yet. And the thought-processes of other species is not an easy field of study. It's sometimes already difficult to work out how another human being thinks, never mind an entire different species!

On the whole I do get the slight inkling you're selling the entire natural world short so humanity looks better in comparison.

The size of the brain does not denote intelligence, as you well know.

But it is generally considered a factor. And just imagine, the many things we can do with our brain, what would that mean for a species with even a bigger brain?

Besides, whales do not only have a significant larger brain, it is a complex one too. Species like humpbacks or finwhales and some dolphins have spindle neurons which are linked to the development of intelligence and adaptivity to changes in their environment. Humans and big apes have them too, as well as elephants. All of them creatures of a marked intelligence and complex social structures. We know far too little about them still, so as I said, they may yet surprise us.

To the creatures that make these things, they are not even beautiful. The termite would only pick a tree because it's good food and a suitable home to it.

Ah, have you talked to termites lately, that you can tell so well what they must be thinking?

That said, I would pick a functional, suitable home over a merely beautiful one every day.

It seems to me that many of you are ungrateful for the value of human life, and for basic wonderful things we have in life.

That's not very kind. Or very accurate. Just because I don't daily sing praises of my own species doesn't say anything about whether I am appreciative to be human and capable of human acts.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Being grateful for the gifts we have been given by evolution is one thing - being careful and tender towards other species another - of course, we are omnivores - we eat anything edible - we devour anything up to the point of extinction. And there is the other aspect of mankind - because of our greed the number of animals and plants in the world have been radically reduced. Is that something to proud of? The vacuuming of the seas, the constant mowing down of the forests of South America, the killing off of predators, the poaching of the african wildlife. As long as man is living off the planet instead of living with it, the steady deminishing of life of Earth will continue.

I agree with you about this.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

That's not very kind. Or very accurate. Just because I don't daily sing praises of my own species doesn't say anything about whether I am appreciative to be human and capable of human acts.

I intended my initial post to be a celebration of the special characteristics of humanity and our unique qualities, capabilities and role in Earth history. I'm fine with people expressing contrary views; I have no issue with that. However, I was dismayed with the complete stream of negativity I received in response, from everyone. To me, it smacks of ingratitude and a lack of appropriate appreciation, that these are the first things anyone thinks of and the only things anyone sees fit to mention, even though I wrote in the initial post that I was hoping for a discussion principally focusing on the good and valuable things we should appreciate. That outpouring of negativism is a sign to me of how people here are choosing to focus their minds, of what people choose to focus on and how they choose to focus and think, because these are the first and only things people mention. I'm not saying people here have no appreciation of humanity, but I think that it's not so much as it should be, and this is an area where we can all improve and should seek a broader view and understanding of life.

I've had the sense on these forums before that people here are too focused on the negative, without sufficient appreciation of the good things that make life so wonderful and beautiful. And that excessive focus on the negative causes people to be less happy than they could be. I'm not saying this to judge at all, but only to encourage an outlook of thanksgiving that makes people happier, the more they practice it. Part of the reason why I created this thread was to provide a kind of counter to that negativity I was sensing as prominent in many people's perspectives. I wanted to make an opening for thanksgiving and a place to think about things of great value that perhaps deserve a lot more attention than we're giving them.

For instance, just a couple weeks ago, I rediscovered my hand. You know how babies sometimes look at their hands? Well, I spent some time, for the first time in my life since I was a baby, really looking at my hand. I thought about the elegance and sophistication of its design, the beauty of the dance of the atoms within it, the molecules moving in their streams and fluidity, the flexibility of my fingers as I moved them, the utility as well as the beauty of this instrument. I never thought about my hand that way before, or felt gratitude.

I've been looking at a lot of things. My desktop has rotating images. I have images of creatures from the dinosaur eras, and from the oceans, present day and ancient day oceans, and photos taken of microscopic creatures through lenses that can go to extreme levels. I have images also of galaxies and nebulas, and all kinds of images of nature's beauty. And, yes, I have some images of people. I love the beauty of the world and universe so, so much -- I've been inundating myself with it. And I feel so, so glad that God has made us as He has, and that He has made everything as He has! It is beautiful and glorious, so, so beautiful!

When I look around me, I increasingly feel gratitude very often, and much more joy as a consequence. I believe we should remember the negative things too, and focus on them insofar as we can change them, or in order to change them, but not much more than that, and not to the extent that that fills up our worldview and takes the place of appropriate appreciation, thanksgiving, and discovery of what is around us all the time, while we never really notice it and pay it attention as we should.

And the human species also, it deserves a special place in our love of nature. It is unique and special in so many varied and beautiful ways that nothing else on Earth can compare to. Though the glorious beauties on Earth also deserve meditation and great, great appreciation for what they are, as well as for what they give us. Oxygen, for instance. That is wonderful. I love oxygen. I've nearly suffocated a few times in my life and had severe respiratory problems when I was young, so perhaps that contributes to my appreciation, but anyone can appreciate oxygen. And everyone should! Selah .

I don't have time to post more at the moment . . .

[Rían]

I don't take it as negative and unappreciative, Lief - I think it's just that some people don't agree with everything you're saying and are trying to provide examples. If you had just used "me" and "I", that would have been better, I think - but you used things like "we should" and "everyone should" - and not everyone agreed!

I do think that we can all benefit from more thankfulness, though. I think the world is amazing! I was leading a Bible study once, and on the spur of the moment, chucked the lesson and took people outside, and we tried to see how many shades of green we could find. And it's not only shades, it's textures - really beautiful!

And it's certainly easy to forget the good points of people that we live with - it's good to remember those and be thankful for them.

I'm glad you're seeing more to appreciate I think I'll slow down a bit today and look around more.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No surprise coming from a classicist, but I'm with you, Lief, I think humanity is pretty much awesome. I see the mirey depths of ill to which the race plunges itself as something that has to be countered, certainly, and something we have to make up for, but I also see it as a sign of the exalted heights to which we can soar.

I don't think it's right to speak of a capacity for good and a capacity for evil as though they were two separate things. Rather, there is one towering capacity, which can be applied to evil or good ends. When we see it being used destructively, why that's all the more reason to promote the creative and nurturing actualization of that capacity.

Again, as a classicist, it will not be a surprise that I likewise see the human capacity for beauty as a prime marker of the wonder of the human race, and the human tendency to strive towards something more in beauty, both in the making and in the loving of it.

Originally Posted by Earniel

That said, I would pick a functional, suitable home over a merely beautiful one every day.

I'm currently living in a bare, industrial-style basement room with pipes covered in electric tape running through it. I can put down a rug, put up a few pieces of art, but the thing is still hideous. I'll take the beautiful home, thanks.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

However, I was dismayed with the complete stream of negativity I received in response, from everyone. To me, it smacks of ingratitude and a lack of appropriate appreciation, that these are the first things anyone thinks of and the only things anyone sees fit to mention, even though I wrote in the initial post that I was hoping for a discussion principally focusing on the good and valuable things we should appreciate.

I don't think it is negativity per say, it is realism in a way.

And neither is it the first and only thing people thought of, but it is the thing people (I at least) chose to comment on in relation to your post. There is a difference in both matters.

I think, Lief, that you came here with already a specific answer in mind that you wanted to have from us on your post. And when we didn't react with the halleluiahs you were expecting from us, you are judging us as lacking and unworthy.

Not everyone here is religious, or religious in the way you are. We can still appreciate what we have, who we are, without feeling the need to thank somebody for it. That implies a creator, and not everybody thinks there is one.

If you wanted this thread to focus on the good things of humanity and those alone, I think you might have tried a different way. I think there are better ways for that than putting humanity on a glowing pedestal, which is what (I think) people here seem to react to.

You're trying to tell us how we should react, how we should give thanks. And if we don't do as you think we should, clearly we're in the wrong, ungrateful and negative. People generally don't like being told what to do and how to think. You say you are fine with people expressing other views, but you label those views immediately as negative yourself. And frankly, inside religion or out of it, you're not the one who gets to decide if we were ungrateful or unappreciative. Especially not based on mere words alone.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I'm currently living in a bare, industrial-style basement room with pipes covered in electric tape running through it. I can put down a rug, put up a few pieces of art, but the thing is still hideous. I'll take the beautiful home, thanks.

Heh, you'll think again when you're living in your beautiful home that is far too beautiful to bother with something as mondaine as decent plumbing.

[inked]

Humanity rocks!

Save the baby humans!

The anthropic principle in our universe ...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

You say you are fine with people expressing other views, but you label those views immediately as negative yourself.

I actually happen to agree with many of the views you all have been expressing. I agree that humans have created an appalling mess of pollution and I think it's tragic that we're killing so many species. And I agree with GrayMouser that we've committed acts of unspeakable evil.

Here's what I said my initial post, "Even though we cause great destruction and terrible things to happen as well, using our power sometimes wrongly, we should never lose our sense of perspective. We should be grateful, and should thank God, that He has made us as humans, and that He has allowed us to live where He has, how He has, and with the ability to see what we can see." Or for the non-religious, another way of going about this would be to spend time meditating on how beautiful these realities are, simply appreciating them. My point in that post was that we do many horrible things, but we should not focus only on that. Rather, we should focus on the positive things as well, things that are uplifting and help us to grow more appreciative of the life we live and the world that surrounds us. And I brought up many things that are positive and special about us, so that we can better appreciate life and the world around us, enjoying a broader worldview than we get if we focus only on the negative.

All I got in response were posts about the horrible things humans have done, the mistakes or evil choices we have made, and arguments that we aren't really as good or special as I was saying, urging a dimmer view of human life. Sure, believe that we're no better than the animals if that's what you believe, and say it. And I don't have a problem with references to the failures and bad choices of many humans. As I said, I'm fine with the expression of contrary opinions. But I made this thread, as I wrote in the final sentence of my first post, primarily to discuss positive things about humanity and its role in Earth history, to fill out our worldview (which can be very bleak) and help us to see in a broader way our place in the world, and appreciate those things we should appreciate, but which we often ignore. So I hope that if you say something disagreeing with me that pulls humanity down a few notches, you might say something else as well that we can appreciate together about humanity and its place in Earth history. Because I certainly didn't create this thread to discuss why humanity belongs in the trash bin, and from all the criticisms of humanity I've seen reading here and the absence of any positive statements about humans (until very recently), it feels as though that's all this thread's about.

We often look only at the dark and miss the positive and uplifting things that we would do well to appreciate. So I created this thread to help us pick up things we so often miss, or leave behind in our tendency to focus on the evil and pain in the world. To get a broader, happier, more accurate and more uplifting outlook on life, we need to look at more than just the dark things, and that's why I created this thread, to look at some things that are uplifting to fill out our perspectives so they aren't so bleak. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my first post that I want to talk about good things and not only the negative. We can talk about the negative too, but we do so to a great extent in other threads, so I hope that if people want to talk also about negative aspects of humanity here, they will at least mingle their comments with a substantial number of positive thoughts about humanity as well.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And frankly, inside religion or out of it, you're not the one who gets to decide if we were ungrateful or unappreciative.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't think it is negativity per say, it is realism in a way.

If that is the case, I was hoping for appreciation for the good things about humanity in this thread, in addition to this realism. And I didn't create the thread to focus principally on realism but to focus principally on positive things that we often don't think about, but which, if we do think more about them, will give us a broader and happier outlook on life and humanity.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I think, Lief, that you came here with already a specific answer in mind that you wanted to have from us on your post. And when we didn't react with the halleluiahs you were expecting from us, you are judging us as lacking and unworthy.

Well, above, I have explained what my expectations and hopes were. If you don't believe me, you're free to believe what you just said. Maybe I've been too judgmental - I don't know. I personally don't think so, but maybe I haven't thought enough about it, or maybe no matter how much I do, I won't see reason, because of my prejudices. In any case, my goal is to help people to think more about the positive things in life and to appreciate them more deeply. Maybe this thread is too distracted now for that to work, but that was my goal from the start, anyway.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Not everyone here is religious, or religious in the way you are. We can still appreciate what we have, who we are, without feeling the need to thank somebody for it.

Agreed, and I referred to that in my first post, too.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

If you wanted this thread to focus on the good things of humanity and those alone,

I have never said those alone, but I have said I was hoping that good things would be at the center of our conversation.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I think you might have tried a different way. I think there are better ways for that than putting humanity on a glowing pedestal, which is what (I think) people here seem to react to.

I think a great many objects, people and creatures deserve a glowing pedestal that we don't give them, because we don't think about it enough to realize they deserve it, or to appreciate things as richly as they should be appreciated. GrayMouser makes that point pretty well with his reference to God's inordinate fondness for beetles . JBS Haldane gave them a glowing pedestal because of how much he studied them, and all that he learned . I would give humanity a glowing pedestal, and beetles a smaller glowing pedestal (though still a substantial one), and I could keep going through the list of creatures, as far as my knowledge extends, trying to appreciate and enjoy things more thoroughly. I think it's a useful and uplifting practice. I, and I think most people, have gotten a lot of joy at different points in their lives out of enjoying the beauty of the universe and of life. The more we come to appreciate things that deserve appreciation, the more joy we'll have, for by elevating things more according to how they should be elevated, we come to enjoy them more, and our thoughts become happier, as do our lives in general.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

You're trying to tell us how we should react, how we should give thanks. And if we don't do as you think we should, clearly we're in the wrong, ungrateful and negative. People generally don't like being told what to do and how to think.

I'm 100% certain that I am ungrateful and unappreciative about many things I should be more appreciative of, and that I have much maturing and growing to do. I'm sure that I'm wrong about many things.

I don't think, and I'm sure you agree, that there's any value in thinking that one has no further to go in gratitude or positive thinking. I also try not only to think about what I like to hear, but also what I dislike hearing, for the latter often helps me to grow the best . Not that I'm all that good at listening; I often make mistakes or tune things out that I should listen to. For instance, I shut my ears very hard, for months, when I first heard the Virgin Mary's voice calling me to join the Catholic Church. And once when I was having an email debate with Gwaimir, I distinctly remember him making many good points that I shut out because of prejudice, but it took me years to reach the point where I could see he had been right, and when I did realize it, it was not because of an increase of humility but because life experiences showed me he was right. And when my sister urged that I moderate my eating several months ago, I felt a strong desire to ignore her or angrily retaliate. And yesterday, when my Dad criticized me, I stormed out of the room! When people criticize me, my tendency, which I must fight, is to bristle. It would be lovely to have more self-control and humility. I think one learns that over time, if one prays and God helps. Though life experiences also can teach it to people without their praying for it. It can come in many ways, while (in my belief ) it always comes from the same Source. Anyway, that was a tangent . . .

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I don't take it as negative and unappreciative, Lief - I think it's just that some people don't agree with everything you're saying and are trying to provide examples.

In some places I can see that's true, while in other cases, I'm not so sure. But I would like to see more positive thoughts at least mingled in, rather than a stream of thoughts about humanity that focus only on its dark side. For I was hoping to create a thread where we could fill in our perspectives with many of the positive things in life, rather than one where we would spend most of our time thinking about how bad things are or can be. Anyway, those are just my opinions on it.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

If you had just used "me" and "I", that would have been better, I think - but you used things like "we should" and "everyone should" - and not everyone agreed!

Yep, I can see I made that mistake in some places. Other times I really do mean "we," but there are a few points in there where I can see I should have written it the other way.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I do think that we can all benefit from more thankfulness, though. I think the world is amazing! I was leading a Bible study once, and on the spur of the moment, chucked the lesson and took people outside, and we tried to see how many shades of green we could find. And it's not only shades, it's textures - really beautiful!

That's lovely . Was this in spring?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'm glad you're seeing more to appreciate I think I'll slow down a bit today and look around more.

:thumsup:

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I see the mirey depths of ill to which the race plunges itself as something that has to be countered, certainly, and something we have to make up for, but I also see it as a sign of the exalted heights to which we can soar.

I never thought about evil in that way. It's an interesting thought.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I don't think it's right to speak of a capacity for good and a capacity for evil as though they were two separate things. Rather, there is one towering capacity, which can be applied to evil or good ends. When we see it being used destructively, why that's all the more reason to promote the creative and nurturing actualization of that capacity.

Yes. And to me, that capacity itself is one of the wonderful things about humans. As are our superior creativity, imagination, and reasoning capabilities, and our other mental advantages. They don't make an individual great, for an individual can misuse them horribly, but these capabilities themselves are great and wonderful.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Again, as a classicist, it will not be a surprise that I likewise see the human capacity for beauty as a prime marker of the wonder of the human race, and the human tendency to strive towards something more in beauty, both in the making and in the loving of it.

I love how you can see the human love of art throughout human history. Even back to the cave man, for he created paintings on the cave walls. Beauty is something humanity has always appreciated, though obviously with different kinds of tastes, depending on the individual .

Originally Posted by inked

Humanity rocks!

Save the baby humans!

The anthropic principle in our universe ...

http://caosblog.com/wp-content/uploa...9/10/fetus.jpg

[EllethValatari]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I agree with you about this.

However, I was dismayed with the complete stream of negativity I received in response, from everyone...

I've had the sense on these forums before that people here are too focused on the negative, without sufficient appreciation of the good things that make life so wonderful and beautiful. And that excessive focus on the negative causes people to be less happy than they could be.

"Pessimism is the inevitable reaction of the thoughtful." (Joseph Wood Krutch)

Perhaps the reason so many are pessimistic is because it's a more realistic point of view. There is more corrupt in this material world than there is good; we need a savior from our own sin and ugliness. Optimism, on the other hand, is not as realistic because our ability to do/create good is very limited, in fact, we can do no good without God's help.

On another non-related note, pessimism is a very beneficial point of view because it never leaves you disappointed. If one always expects the worst, he will be either always satisfied or always happy.

[EllethValatari]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't think it is negativity per say, it is realism in a way.

Much better summary of my above point

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

"Pessimism is the inevitable reaction of the thoughtful." (Joseph Wood Krutch)

Perhaps the reason so many are pessimistic is because it's a more realistic point of view. There is more corrupt in this material world than there is good; we need a savior from our own sin and ugliness. Optimism, on the other hand, is not as realistic because our ability to do/create good is very limited, in fact, we can do no good without God's help.

On another non-related note, pessimism is a very beneficial point of view because it never leaves you disappointed. If one always expects the worst, he will be either always satisfied or always happy.

I disagree. Pessimists always like to say, "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist." But the reality lies somewhere between an optimistic view and a pessimistic one. Or, rather, a realistic view is at one and the same time both optimistic and pessimistic.

EDIT: waxed rather theological.