Newbies

[EllethValatari]

I'm a little put back (and slightly annoyed) by all the chat-talk run-on posts we are receiving from different hobbits. In addition, it bugs me when Middle Earth topics are being discussed and some one comes and asks who Frodo was ...things like that.

So I was wondering, what is the purpose of this forum? In other words, is this forum here for anyone to join and chat about whatever they want, or is it truly dedicated to the works of Tolkien? And if so, would it be helpful to require that you know something about his works, so that we can have good discussions?

(Even the members list is junked up with tons of new members who will probably never revisit Entmoot)

If not, it's wrong for me to be annoyed.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think the point is really somewhere in the middle; it's not meant to be "just anyone," nor is it meant to be just for Tolkien scholars, or anything along those lines. Currently, there are measures in place for that; as I recall, when one first registers, one must identify "Bilbo's nephew" as being Frodo Baggins, or perhaps identify "Frodo's last name;" something along those lines, at any rate.

You should have been here when the movies were coming out; THAT was the reigning glory of the newbies!

[katya]

I think most (but not all) of us came here out of a love for Tolkien, but as we've discussed everything we could think of about his works, we migrated to the more general forums. I for one come here now for the social aspect and the friends I've made over the years. And, this forum, whether we're actually talking about Tolkien or not, has a lot more intelligent, or at least intellectual types of people that other forums, and we tend to have similar interests. I don't really have anything more to discuss about Tolkien. If I feel like I want to spent some time with that world I'll just re-read the books again. I come to Entmoot for just plain old chatting, whether that be chit-chat Teacup cafe style or more serious discussions. Could be just me but I think a lot of others have had a similar experience.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

You've pretty much described my reasons for coming to a tee.

Of course, there is also the fact that some of the more knowledgeable Ringers don't seem to be around anymore, such as Sister Golden Hair, and Michael Martinez, a bona fide Tolkien scholar. We simply aren't able, without minds like these, to keep up the level of Tolkien based discussion that we use to. Perhaps with them around we would still find stuff to talk about, but it's really mostly the general discussion forums these days.

[Mari]

What Kat and Gwai said. Though I'm relatively new compared to them. When I got here in 2006 there was still some discussion going on and sometimes someone new and knowledgeable joins and the discussions will flare up again though.
Over the years, I've seen periodic frantic activity in almost all parts of this forum, so I'm sure new real discussions will ensue at some point again.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

I'm a little put back (and slightly annoyed) by all the chat-talk run-on posts we are receiving from different hobbits. In addition, it bugs me when Middle Earth topics are being discussed and some one comes and asks who Frodo was ...things like that.

Well, not everyone has read all of Tolkien's most popular works before they go out and find themselves a forum. And unfortunately not everyone pays closer attention to where they post and yes, people can but into the wrong discussion. Although lately, I thought that happened only rarely these days.

We have different forums just for this, so people can discuss the specific books they want to talk about. If you only have read LoTR, or seen the movie, you can start in those forums, and if the fancy takes you, explore the other forums. I discovered HoME through Entmoot, I didn't even know it existed beforehand. And I discovered it by asking questions, and having more knowledgable mooters willing to answer them.

We try to be a good place for both dedicated and casual Tolkien-fans. We have had chapter discussions of various books, (unfortunately private issues tend to prevent me from putting as much care in the Unfinished Tales Discussion as I would have liked) indepth-discussions about the fate of Half-Elves, technology of PalantÃ*rs or the real identity of the Witch-King as well as lighter discussions about who's your favourite character and who can beat who in combat. There's no need for us to pick one over the other, both sort of discussion can co-exist on the Entmoot.

So I was wondering, what is the purpose of this forum? In other words, is this forum here for anyone to join and chat about whatever they want, or is it truly dedicated to the works of Tolkien? And if so, would it be helpful to require that you know something about his works, so that we can have good discussions?

In any case both options you describe do not have to be mutually exclusive. On Entmoot we try a bit of both.

We're still a board dedicated to the works of Tolkien, as evident in the many Tolkien forums we have. But very few boards will be able to survive on Tolkien alone. The material that Tolkien left behind is after all limited, at some point you will have discussed everything you want to discus, maybe even done it twice while you were at it. I believe it was RÃ*an who coined the phrase "being Tolkiened out." for that. As others have mentioned we have people who joined years ago for Tolkien, but who stayed for the community, and long-time members who barely set foot outside the Tolkien-area and visa versa.

We do have a little security question in place that only allows you to register if you can give Frodo's last name, but that is mostly to keep out spam-bots. Frankly I can't see anyone not knowing that, wanting to join a Tolkien-forum.

[EllethValatari]

I think I was a little unclear....now that I've read over your comments I realize that. I was referring only to the scholarly discussions about Tolkien's works....I understand that there is are other sections of the forum in which we can talk about Harry Potter, the World Cup, etc. I am just somewhat put back when the scholarly discussions about his works are interrupted. Considering these threads and not threads about Harry Potter are the topics Entmoot was created to discuss, I was just wondering if there could be a little bit more of a quiz at the beginning so that at least in the Tolkien forums, we all start with the same basic foundation (and I do not claim in any way to be some Tolkien-scholar, I know very little )

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

I was just wondering if there could be a little bit more of a quiz at the beginning so that at least in the Tolkien forums, we all start with the same basic foundation (and I do not claim in any way to be some Tolkien-scholar, I know very little )

To answer your question directly, we have no intention of making it harder to join in the discussions . We don't want to create an exclusive environment where you have to meet some standard 'level' of Tolkien knowledge to participate. Remember: if someone is asking questions you don't feel like answering, you are in no way obligated to reply to them. Having a quiz would, in my opinion, be a lot like requiring everyone to be 18 to post here.

[Earniel]

I can see where you're coming from, but I tend to agree with what Tessar said. We want to be an open forum. If we raise the threshold for people to enter the Tolkien forums, we're very likely to push more people away than we would attract.

Besides, putting a test into place is going to create a great deal of practical problems. While the benefits -in my opinion- would be small if any.

For instance: What will you take as basic foundation? The LoTR books? The LoTR movies? The Hobbit? Include the Silmarillion as well? All of the above? What questions would you pose and how? This is harder to figure out than it may look at first glance. How will you go about approving members? etc. It is likely to require either a lot more moderating to keep the non-Tolkien people out or some basic restructuring in the user's access settings or forum restrictions.

[GrayMouser]

Just reviewed all the Tokien threads from your join date on, and I didn't notice any particularly egregious ignorance, other than the one unfortunate post by frank lampard- and really, you have to expect that in the movie sub-forum. As Gwai notes, you should have been here for The Invasion of the Orlando Bloom Fan-Girls

There are forums where you can get blasted for not knowing the numbers and placing of the eoreds of the various Marshals of the Riddermark, but the Moot has always been a more laid-back and newbie-friendly place- at least as far as the Tolkien forums go; others (esp. general discussion ) have had their more heated moments.

[GrayMouser]

I can also understand being full of enthusiasm for the Professor's works and coming to a specifically-Tolkien oriented forum and being disappointed that there's not much Tolkien discussion going on.

[EllethValatari]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

I can also understand being full of enthusiasm for the Professor's works and coming to a specifically-Tolkien oriented forum and being disappointed that there's not much Tolkien discussion going on.

Yes, that is my main cause of disappointment...I realize that this forum has been around for years and for years the mooters have been discussing his works, but it's hard to express my enthusiasm for his works when his most diligent fanatics are sick of talking about him, and his new fanatics live in a society in which you see the movie to know the book and then are somehow content enough to never continue pursuing to story. I know I can never be content with my knowledge of anything-there is always more to learn and discuss-but I guess some people are.

[BeardofPants]

sf-fandom probably has the fan-base that you're really interested in. I don't know how frequent people post there anymore though.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

Yes, that is my main cause of disappointment...I realize that this forum has been around for years and for years the mooters have been discussing his works, but it's hard to express my enthusiasm for his works when his most diligent fanatics are sick of talking about him, and his new fanatics live in a society in which you see the movie to know the book and then are somehow content enough to never continue pursuing to story.

Oh come on, now . Many people have read the books because of the movies... most of my RL friends have... so don't play the "people are dumb and I'm awesome because I read the books," card that so many people play . That's why we have separate forums for discussing the movies and the books. You're making an extremely unfair generalization, particularly that just because someone hasn't read Tolkien's works that they are somehow unwilling to continue to learn.

I know I can never be content with my knowledge of anything-there is always more to learn and discuss-but I guess some people are.

That's admirable, but not everyone has the free time to write in lengthy debates. They're probably too busy seeking knowledge to talk to you . But in all seriousness, there is nothing wrong with engaging primarily in non-Tolkien discussion, particularly when you've already had MANY discussions on the topic. I have rarely engaged in any Tolkien debate on this board because my entire family loves Tolkien, so I get more than my fill of discussion in RL. The Entmoot is a community, not just a literary chat-board.

Some people also come here not particularly because of Tolkien, but because of the kind of people who are generally attracted to Tolkien. Sort of like involving yourself in a chess club not because you're particularly fond of chess, but because you want to hang out with the kind of people who have the patience to play chess, or the analytical skill, etc.

I'm sorry if you're not really satisfied with the level of debate here, but as others have already pointed out there are a multitude of factors for why the Tolkien debating might not be as heavy as it once was... but I doubt very much that it has anything to do with people's willingness to continue to read, or learn.

[BeardofPants]

Wot he said. Saturated. Abso-frickin'-lutely saturated. I've read HoMEs, Sil, LOTR, Hobbit, plus a few other misc bits and pieces like Letters, but at the end of the day, I just don't have it in me anymore. And frankly? Your elitist attitude is not doing you any favours.

[EllethValatari]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Your elitist attitude is not doing you any favours.

Oh man, I did not mean to come off like that at all...I don't want the board to be more scholarly if it is not meant to be that way. I just was wondering if it was meant to be that way, and I see it's not. I love the people here, and I'm really sorry for starting this thread and coming off like that. I'm not trying to look down on anyone in any way....you all are way smarter and better versed than me and I know that.

(and I think my generalization about people seeing movies and expecting to then know the books does apply to Americans, but not most of the mooters here )

I'm going to shut up now.

[katya]

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

I know I can never be content with my knowledge of anything-there is always more to learn and discuss-but I guess some people are.

Come back in a few years and say so. From looking back at your old posts, you've only been a fan yourself for a maximum of three years. Most of us posting in this thread have been members of the board for 8+ years or so, and possibly Tolkien fans for years before that.

It so happens that there was a resurgence of interest in Tolkien during the time the movies were coming out (2002-2004, the first movie I think came out the end of 2001), and there was a lot more discussion then. There were a lot of people who were new fans then, still very excited about the books, whether they knew about them from the movies or from friends talking about the movies, or whatever. That's died down some and so sorry you're a bit late and have missed out on that.

I'm wondering a bit what exactly you are looking for. When I came to this board, I was just totally geeked out and wanted, basically, to think about Middle Earth all the time. Whether that was a simple "Who is your favorite character?" discussion or something more serious, or maybe learning to write with the Tengwar, or trying to learn Quenya. (Or when not on Entmoot, doing things like drawing fanart and crafting things, or even going on adventures in the woods pretending to be exploring Middle Earth, dressed in pretend elf cloaks and experimenting with lembas or cram recipes, yes I actually did this and no I was not like 5 years old I was like 14 lol) Do you feel like that, or are you more interested in serious discussion, like do you want to be a sort of Tolkien scholar? I'm curious. There are plenty of old threads full of good discussion, and if you actually have anything new to add to them, feel free, I guess.

EDIT: Cross post! Um, I guess apology accepted and don't feel too bad.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by EllethValatari

you all are way smarter and better versed than me and I know that.

Haha, that is debatable . You are intelligent for your age. I think it has less to do with being smart and more to do with many of us being in a very different place in life than you are, so we have a very different point of view on things.

I'm going to shut up now.

Aww don't do that . I hope you don't feel that anyone here has anything against you. I think we all understand that it's very easy to come off one way when you meant something entirely different, especially online.


But to touch on your comment, which I think could be expressed as the question "what is Entmoot supposed to be?", any forum is going to be the result of what the people in it want it to be. I know that sounds vague, but my point is that if you are interested in engaging in some deep, scholarly debate... why not try it? Start a thread on a 'deep' subject regarding Tolkien that has always interested you. Don't wait for someone else to bring it up... and as the 'debate leader' be ready to continue to stimulate the discussion if that is required.

[EllethValatari]

I don't really know what I want-I am interested in serious discussions, but I'm also confused by why I like Tolkien's works so much, in the same way that I confused by why I like math. Over time I've gotten closer to guessing why I am so passionate about both, and I thought this forum would kindle that passion even more. Whatever day I started this thread I was just feeling really disapionted, I'm constantly bummed down by how little one can learn in one day, and I guess I let it out by complaining. I'm really sorry for being so bitchy...and sorry for the diary entry-type post

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

But in all seriousness, there is nothing wrong with engaging primarily in non-Tolkien discussion, particularly when you've already had MANY discussions on the topic. I have rarely engaged in any Tolkien debate on this board because my entire family loves Tolkien, so I get more than my fill of discussion in RL. The Entmoot is a community, not just a literary chat-board.

My main interest is a different one again - Role Playing. I try to be involved in the RPG Forum, and have participated in some of the stories being told there.

Other than that, I read the literary discussions here when they occur - and occasionally even butt in. And then I chat, in the Teacup Cafe and in the Election threads, and other community threads.

But what got me in here in the first place, was the RPG (and being invited by another RPG'er).