Melkor Diminished

AndMorgothCame. · 01-23-2010, 01:23 AM

I remember reading somewhere about how when either Eonwe, or Manwe himself, confronted Morgoth during either the War of Wrath or the Dagor Dagorath, both beings were shocked in the actual size difference between them, due to Melkor wasting his being and spreading his power too thin. Can anyone please elaborate on this, and also list the text in which it can be read?

AndMorgothCame. · 01-25-2010, 06:30 AM

Lefty Scaevola · 01-25-2010, 03:23 PM

I recall the passage, it is not in the published SIL, so it is in HoME soewhere, likely in Morgoths Ring or The War of the Great Jewels. As I recall, it was mostly his spending his power/creative essence in the War against the Nolder and their aliies that weakened him, and then durring the War of Wrath the Valar dug up and dispersed the veins of Morgoth Element/sotred power (Mogroth's equivilent of Sauron's later One Ring, "the whole of middle earth was Morgoth's ring") that he has incorporated in the land to cut him off from that power reserve (and this was the main reason for Beleriand breaking up and sinking into the sea).

***Valandil*** · 01-25-2010, 06:30 PM

I had not heard about this before, and it sounds interesting. I only own a couple of the HoME books, and haven't read those two all the way through (just got them to research particular interests).

I take it from what you said that Melkor was smaller when they met? Or was he more stretched out, but somehow less substantial? If the former, it's interesting - because he seems so large (compared to Elves & Humans) when he fights Fingolfin and when Beren & Luthien steal one of the Silmarils from his crown. If the other Valar were larger still, it's hard to imagine them having much of a working relationship with the Elves of Aman.

And really - I always would have thought the Valar could make themselves about any size they wanted to (as well as any appearance) in dealing with Elves & Men. So this is an interesting sounding episode.

Lefty Scaevola · 01-25-2010, 07:53 PM

I did not find the passage but looking up Eonwe in the index for the two book I mention.

Val, as I recall the diminishment was not in physical dimensions, but in power and majesty.

***Valandil*** · 01-25-2010, 08:12 PM

Got it. Thanks Lefty. That makes more sense - and I didn't think of it.

Lefty Scaevola · 02-08-2010, 04:42 PM

Its in Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed; VI, p. 391,

"Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze."

01-23-2010, 01:23 AM	#1
AndMorgothCame. Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 40	Melkor Diminished I remember reading somewhere about how when either Eonwe, or Manwe himself, confronted Morgoth during either the War of Wrath or the Dagor Dagorath, both beings were shocked in the actual size difference between them, due to Melkor wasting his being and spreading his power too thin. Can anyone please elaborate on this, and also list the text in which it can be read? __________________ Thus he came alone to Angband's gates. . . and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat.

01-25-2010, 06:30 AM	#2
AndMorgothCame. Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 40	Bump Last edited by AndMorgothCame. : 01-25-2010 at 01:24 PM.

01-25-2010, 03:23 PM	#3
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	I recall the passage, it is not in the published SIL, so it is in HoME soewhere, likely in Morgoths Ring or The War of the Great Jewels. As I recall, it was mostly his spending his power/creative essence in the War against the Nolder and their aliies that weakened him, and then durring the War of Wrath the Valar dug up and dispersed the veins of Morgoth Element/sotred power (Mogroth's equivilent of Sauron's later One Ring, "the whole of middle earth was Morgoth's ring") that he has incorporated in the land to cut him off from that power reserve (and this was the main reason for Beleriand breaking up and sinking into the sea). __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 01-25-2010 at 07:58 PM.

01-25-2010, 06:30 PM	#4
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	I had not heard about this before, and it sounds interesting. I only own a couple of the HoME books, and haven't read those two all the way through (just got them to research particular interests). I take it from what you said that Melkor was smaller when they met? Or was he more stretched out, but somehow less substantial? If the former, it's interesting - because he seems so large (compared to Elves & Humans) when he fights Fingolfin and when Beren & Luthien steal one of the Silmarils from his crown. If the other Valar were larger still, it's hard to imagine them having much of a working relationship with the Elves of Aman. And really - I always would have thought the Valar could make themselves about any size they wanted to (as well as any appearance) in dealing with Elves & Men. So this is an interesting sounding episode. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

01-25-2010, 07:53 PM	#5
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	I did not find the passage but looking up Eonwe in the index for the two book I mention. Val, as I recall the diminishment was not in physical dimensions, but in power and majesty. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 01-25-2010 at 07:55 PM.

01-25-2010, 08:12 PM	#6
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Got it. Thanks Lefty. That makes more sense - and I didn't think of it. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

02-08-2010, 04:42 PM	#7
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Its in Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed; VI, p. 391, "Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze." __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 02-08-2010 at 04:53 PM.