03-30-2009, 09:50 AM | #1 |
Enting
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The first age is freaking weird
I don't know if its just me... and I haven't entirely read through the simirilian yet, so bear with me, but the first age seems really weird to me. In a sense, it seems kind of like the Christian old testament compared to the new testament. Things seem much more grand, and in a sense, unbelievable, in the first age. Giant trees, a spider that poisons them, the lamps, sending the ship into the sky with the simiril, the epic scale of the destruction of Morgoth...
Then compare it to the story of the lord of the rings. While, epic, and fantastic, it is in no way near the same level of the first age stories. In fact, its SUCH a contrast, that the first age seems... well, "unbelievable". Is it possible that the first age is to be taken metaphorically? Have the stories been exadurated by passing them through word of mouth over the generations, much like our own stories? Last edited by Tinman : 03-30-2009 at 09:52 AM. |
03-30-2009, 10:53 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Well, it is supposed to be considered a mythology, I think. So whether it's technically "true" is an open question.
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03-30-2009, 12:46 PM | #3 |
Deus Ex Machina
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At the same time, you can't take them to be purely metaphorical or even folkloric in the sense of stories passed down and changed within an oral tradition because we are to believe that within the story world the Silmarillion was a written text, probably one written by elves who had lived through the First Age, translated by Bilbo.
So the question isn't 'did the stories change over time' (we aren't ever given the mannish equivalent of the Sil, which probably would have been closer to existing oral traditions), but did the elves depict themselves accurately and what biases or unfamiliar modes of thinking might be present in their account?
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
03-30-2009, 02:08 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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IIRC, even Tolkien considered such things later in life (if not all along). It's certainly a challenge for a reader and seems to have been so even for him. In addition, there are portions of the published Silmarillion that were to be considered Mannish traditions, as opposed to those of the Elves, I believe.
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03-30-2009, 05:26 PM | #5 | |
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Quote:
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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03-31-2009, 11:26 AM | #6 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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He originally described it as a series of incidental tales, some short, some long and detailed, some cryptic, some graphic. But, he never finished it (the published Silmarillion, which strict Canonists refer to derisively as "Sil '77", has more than a little contamination by Christopher Tolkien and at least one other).
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03-31-2009, 12:33 PM | #7 |
Deus Ex Machina
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I know. I was speculating about what he might have decided those stories were if he had lived long enough to finish them.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
03-31-2009, 12:47 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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But since Christopher's "contamination" is well-documented, by CT himself and others, the reader is (or can be) informed and can therefore make his or her own judgments about what to consider canon.
I think the reasons discussions sometimes devolve are often because posters don't always make their definition of canon known at the outset, assuming one's own definition is "the" definition. In addition, even upon learning that there are multiple possible definitions of canon in Tolklore, it is often difficult to accept that there isn't "an" answer but that answers vary according to a reader's understanding. Some people never accept that. FWIW, I'm of the view that publishing (even when done by the estate of the deceased Professor) trumps all, and that while "Sil'77" obviously doesn't mesh 100% with either Tolkien's original conceptions or his last, it's the version that got published and therefore holds more weight than HoME or UT or the Marquette manuscripts. That said, I understand and respect the opinions of those who approach the works otherwise.
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03-31-2009, 01:14 PM | #9 |
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Except that HoME and UT and all the others have now also been published as completely as possible and with extensive notes by CT.
I tend to consider the Sil as the first source when looking at general timelines/geneaologies/maps etc. but when I want details for the longer stories that it just summarizes (Beren/Luthien, Fall of Gondolin) then HoME becomes a better first source and the Sil takes a back seat on the basis that even if one of those texts is very old and may have been due for revision, it's still the one he put the most work into writing and therefore likely to be closer to what he was going for (at the time he wrote it). Besides, the idea of all the conflicting versions running around Middle Earth amuses me.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
03-31-2009, 10:11 PM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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Good point about UT and HoME.
And I like having multiple versions, too, as long as people don't try to convince me that one is the right version. The conflicting versions may actually make it more authentic. Just as there are several real world versions of various myths and religious traditions, Tolkien's world has several versions of some stories, too. It's a pretty cool phenomenon.
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04-01-2009, 11:32 AM | #11 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Quote:
That said, I am a "Strict Canonist" and accept only works published duriing JRRT's lifetime as definitive. Obviously, that excludes Sil '77, never mind how tattered my copy (purchased in 1977) is.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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04-01-2009, 01:20 PM | #12 | |
the Shrike
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04-01-2009, 02:28 PM | #13 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I'm a strict anti-canonist. I think Tolkien's ideas about Middle Earth changed and evolved throughout his entire lifetime. His initial idea was to create a folklore for the UK that he thought was lacking. Folklore, by definition, is mutable. It's the themes and ideas that are important, not the specific details.
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04-02-2009, 08:43 AM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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This is what I love about Entmoot.
I've frequented other boards where various ideas such as the last several posts in this thread would not be tolerated by militant posters who seem to approach discussion as if everything Tolkien wrote really and truly happened.
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04-02-2009, 06:10 PM | #15 |
AngAdan
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I consider one part of CT's "contamination", Thingol's death because of his greed about the silmaril, to be some of the best writting in the published Sil. It is much more inspired that JRRT's notes ruminating how he might complete that part.
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04-02-2009, 08:37 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
In that sense, 'contaminations', alterations, interpretations and extrapolations of all sorts, especially those that occur in pseudo-oral environments such as the internet, are actually a necessary step in the process of achieving the author's literary intent.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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04-03-2009, 01:16 AM | #17 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Tolkien loved to play with the idea of numerous varying and sometimes incorrect versions of the story recorded in different sources. That's why he wrote 4 or 5 versions of the fall of Numenor. In some of them even the distinction between Valar, Maiar and Elves was lost - they were summarily called Avalai.
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Entmoot is simply fortunate to have none of crazy canon fanatics, that's all. |
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04-03-2009, 08:27 AM | #18 |
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* thinks things have gone just a little bit too far *
* loads canons *
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
04-03-2009, 12:21 PM | #19 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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04-03-2009, 05:44 PM | #20 |
Enting
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