Education

[katya]

It seems like we've been talking about education a lot in the teacup lately, and so I thought I'd start a thread about it. As an aspiring educator, this is a subject that interests me a great deal. I hope we can have some nice discussions.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, keep it civil. Let us seek to understand each other, not to convert each other.

[shesabrandybuck]

Honestly, what is the point of Geometry? I know I talk about math a lot, but some of it seems ridiculous. Like proofs, what is the point? Or prime numbers...why do we need to keep finding them, what is their importance?

Well actually, my point is, why do we need to take some of the classes that we are required to take in High School? To give us a taste of different things?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by shesabrandybuck

Honestly, what is the point of Geometry? I know I talk about math a lot, but some of it seems ridiculous. Like proofs, what is the point? Or prime numbers...why do we need to keep finding them, what is their importance?

Well actually, my point is, why do we need to take some of the classes that we are required to take in High School? To give us a taste of different things?

There's that. But some of it is intended to give you some general thinking skills that are more widely useful.

Take proofs, for example. The structure of a proof, with shared axioms, and a logical progression, is a pattern that underlies a lot of prsentations. When people have never been exposed to it, they have trouble evaluating, for example, the nonsense of some political platforms. Or picking suitable medical care.

I actually use things like prime numbers, when I'm knitting. Increasing or decreasing a pattern is all about factoring.

Here's a small sample of some thought about compulsory education, though.

http://www.publicschoolrenewal.org/e...ompulsory2.htm

I was fortunate to have many fine teachers who permitted me to study outside and in addition to curriculum. If I'd been stuck in a classroom reviewing the material for the state standards test, I'd have been so outta there.

[katya]

Well, what do you think, Link? I can answer your first question somewhat- you need to learn the math you are learning now so that you can do more math later. Proofs are really important because they help you understand the why of the math. But, let's talk about curriculum then. How much math does the average person really need? If you created your own high school curriculum, what would you include?

[shesabrandybuck]

Hmm, well, with all the math I have taken in such a short amount of time...Algebra I and II, then trig. I havent taken pre-calc yet or stat, so Im not sure about those. Pretty much...not geometry.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by shesabrandybuck

Hmm, well, with all the math I have taken in such a short amount of time...Algebra I and II, then trig. I havent taken pre-calc yet or stat, so Im not sure about those. Pretty much...not geometry.

I think that's partly how one's brain is designed.

I'm visual-spatial. I LOVED geometry.

How would I have known, when I'd spent years taking sequential math classes and figured I was just "bad at math"?

[shesabrandybuck]

Ick, I hated geom, I just couldnt grasp it. I spent more than hours trying to figure it out almost every day. I am so glad the tyranny is over.

Do you think that America should be more strict with schools? Like adding more hours in the day, or taking kids out that frankly dont give a damn?

Gosh, I would love that, taking worthless kids (sorry if I am being offensive) out, who dont give a damn about school, and just waste our time. I think that kids shouldnt be forced to go to school. I know you have a choice after 16, but it's really not your choice. Your parents are going to make you go.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Personally, I think everyone should go to school, and I think almost everyone WOULD, if the schools had more variety, and higher entrance standards.

But I'd make them work for it. If you aren't doing the work in biology class, move over and study how to be a great cook. People have different learning styles, have schools that cater to that. People have different interests...what's wrong with that? Suburban parents all want to shoehorn their kids into anything that says "gifted", and we have a society full of average morons with pricy degrees.

There has to be some place where merit really has a moment. Why not schools?

[klatukatt]

I think that sums it up.

[BeardofPants]

I never thought I'd need trig outside of school, but then I had to calculate the slope of a beach landing zone for work.... >_<

[BeardofPants]

Education's a funny one. Shoe-horning is right. And it's problematic too. I didn't know "me" until I was much older than high school age. The choices we make, the classes we choose... at such a young age. And we don't really "know" ourselves; what we'll be, what we'll do, who we'll grow into, the life we'll choose... [/ponders]

[Willow Oran]

Though I doubt it was meant this way, reading through that article in favor outlining the pro and cons of of a voluntary system gave me a very strong sense that what they suggest would foster discrimination against disadvantaged children.

Many of the 'disruptive' children in school are stuggling with mental disability, or with behavioral problems brought about by a poverty stricken, neglectful or otherwise problematic home environment.

It's the public schools who get these students, and because many of them live in lower class, urban areas, they get stuck in the underfunded, urban schools that the good teachers don't want to teach in, a situation which only feeds disruptive behavior.

I saw nothing in that article to suggest that giving schools that currently have to take all students the power to refuse the 'bad' ones would help break that cycle. Indeed, legalizing such discrimination would only worsen the education gap by further burdening the parents and giving the children no chance at any education.

If you want better schools, try funding the ones you have and giving the teachers a decent wage and some respect for the work they do. A school with the funds to provide material resources and employ specialists to help teachers accomodate disadvantaged students coupled with happy, motivated teachers will entice students to learn just as well and won't allow prejudiced culling practices.

On the lighter subject of geometry:

Proofs are evil. I recall classtime spent writing anti-proof fairytales because they were just so utterly boring. Logic may be useful, but it's terribly dull when expressed in meaning neutral symbols.

[Mari]

I am not very familiar with the American public schools (but I'm learning about it here, every day ), but they seem similar to the primary school I went to.
Now, years later, I found out that there are many different teaching styles and that some children learn better in style A than in style B, yet the school I went to everyone had to be A.
I think that if there is more attention to fitting the educational style with the child rather than fitting the child within a certain educational style, a lot of problems will be solved already.
Making schools voluntary sounds like a bad idea IMO, but I haven't read the article, so more on that when I do.

Link: I hate Math and I absolutely suck at it, but even when I study Psychology or Language Education, I need it. I really wish I had more of an understanding of it. For me, it would help if the problems would relate more to reality instead of dry problems, thought up by some old men who lock themselves up in a closet, jsut so they can think of a new Mathbook to write...

[Earniel]

I would have dropped French and German like fire had I been given the chance in highschool. Now, so many years later, I am very happy both were compulsory lessons. I would not have been able to learn those languages to the same extent now.

As for maths, I truly sucked at it, and there were many things like logaritms I still dislike with a passion. But sometimes I do need things I learned in math class for work.

In highschool there was one semester where we learned in geometry how to divide 3D objects at angles. It had to do with grades and a pair of compasses. It's such a crying shame I had to hand in my notes so I can never reconstruct exactly what I learned then. Now it would have been so incredibly handy for drawing buildings and objects in the right perspective.

[The Gaffer]

+1 to what Willow Oran said.

Pre-16 is too young to specialise too much IMO. We change a lot between 18 and 21 even. Broad education means a broader perspective. Not saying that people need to suffer something they suck at, just that there should be a balance of science & arts, basic & applied etc.

[katya]

Originally Posted by shesabrandybuck

Do you think that America should be more strict with schools? Like adding more hours in the day, or taking kids out that frankly dont give a damn?

I don't think adding more hours would really improve our education that much. I think making better use of the hours we're in school would be the first step. But you're still in high school right? Have you noticed the whole No Child Left Behind stuff? Part of that is supposedly making school stricter about making sure we learn what we're supposed to, but do you think it's helping?

By the way, I really liked doing proofs in geometry. It was like riddles or something.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I think that's partly how one's brain is designed.

I'm visual-spatial. I LOVED geometry.

How would I have known, when I'd spent years taking sequential math classes and figured I was just "bad at math"?

Me too. Geometry was delish. Every since my Freshman year of college, I've been missing Euclid.

[shesabrandybuck]

I guess I am the only one who hated geometry, I didnt understand it at all. I love algebra and trig, though (although Im not great at trig), it's like solving a puzzle. I love solving for x, there can be so many different ways to find it, but it always turns out to be the same number . Okay, well proofs do have a point...but what about logarithims?

No Child Left Behind is such pish posh. I dont think it has done anything. It reminds me of the HSAs that I have to take. If you fail, you get to take another HSA that is easier, if you fail that one then you have to do a project or something. Its like...then what is the point of taking them if they are making it easier so everyone can pass?

[Mari]

We have a NCLB-policy here too since 2004. The teachers in interviewed for class didn't seem to have a lot of problems with it. Though those were primary education teachers.
Here schools are divided into different levels after primary education, so people usually end up in the right level for them, based on a test in their final year and the recommendation of the teacher, so in secondary education NCLB has little to no effect.
The teachers in prim. ed. say they usually divide classes up in groups so they can take the time to explain things more thoroughly to the children who do not understand it all yet. Pretty much every school also has a remedial teacher, who helps with problems like dyslexia, or ADHD.
Of course there are also special schools for children with that sort of problem. There are at least 4 different sorts of special ed. but parents often don't want their children to go to such a school. Still, 3 out of those 4 are normal schools.

[Empress_Flynn]

Originally Posted by shesabrandybuck

I guess I am the only one who hated geometry, I didnt understand it at all. I love algebra and trig, though (although Im not great at trig), it's like solving a puzzle. I love solving for x, there can be so many different ways to find it, but it always turns out to be the same number . Okay, well proofs do have a point...but what about logarithims?

No Child Left Behind is such pish posh. I dont think it has done anything. It reminds me of the HSAs that I have to take. If you fail, you get to take another HSA that is easier, if you fail that one then you have to do a project or something. Its like...then what is the point of taking them if they are making it easier so everyone can pass?

I hated Geometry too, Link Lol... for some reason I'm just not good at that one... in algebra (and even trig to a certain extent) I could always just work really really hard and manage to get things, but geometry was elusive... I don't know if part of the reason is that I had an AMAZING teacher for algebra and only a so-so one for geometry... I'm one of those math students that really needs the teacher to hold their hands through things and sort of give me a push...

In terms of other learning things... I definitely think it is a matter of having better teachers (higher paid too!). When I think of all the half-assed, confusing, dismissive, and uncaring teachers I had over the years (particularly in middle and high school) I cringe and wonder if they weren't partially responsible for my hatred of some subjects...

And there again, it's not all about the teachers, but their teaching styles and how a particular student learns... maybe it would be best to assess the ways a child is most receptive to learning and have teachers that can meet that...

Not entirely sure of the realities of that idea, but there you go lol.