Seeking for Meneltarma Island

[Valandil]

I had just finished up a book, so I decided to re-read a few of Tolkien's essays. I picked up Akallabeth, and noticed something I hadn't paid particular attention to before. Toward the end, after Numenor is sunk:

"Among the Exiles many believed that the summit of the Meneltarma, the Pillar of Heaven, was not drowned for ever, but rose again above the waves, a lonely island lost in the great waters; for it had been a hallowed place, and even in the days of Sauron none had defiled it. And some there were of the seed of Eärendil that afterwards sought for it, because it was said among loremasters that the farsighted men of old could see from the Meneltarma a glimmer of the Deathless Land...."

Later, in the midst of the next paragraph, it reads:

"...But they found it not...."

OK - my question: Who among the seed of Eärendil do you think it was that sought for the Meneltarma?

My chief candidates would be:

1. One of the earlier Kings of Arnor. I think after Valandil (who was King too soon), but before Valandur (who died prematurely, presumably the kingdom was occupied with other things by his time). Probably before they became King. I don't think it's likely from the north after the Division of Arnor.

2. One of the four Ship Kings of Gondor. Again, probably while their father was actually King. Or else maybe Atanatar Alcarin, son of the last Ship King.

3. A King of Umbar - probably in the 15th-18th century, when they had taken on new blood from Gondor, and Castamir's descendants still ruled.

Of course there could have been others. Maybe many. I suspect at least some of them were high ranking, prominent people. The account goes on to mention how tales tell that a few stumbled upon the 'straight road' and were not heard from again.

[Gordis]

Hmm... Interesting question, Val.

Originally Posted by Valandil

1. One of the earlier Kings of Arnor. I think after Valandil (who was King too soon), but before Valandur (who died prematurely, presumably the kingdom was occupied with other things by his time). Probably before they became King. I don't think it's likely from the north after the Division of Arnor.

2. One of the four Ship Kings of Gondor. Again, probably while their father was actually King. Or else maybe Atanatar Alcarin, son of the last Ship King.

3. A King of Umbar - probably in the 15th-18th century, when they had taken on new blood from Gondor, and Castamir's descendants still ruled.

I don't really believe in 1. Arnor Kings had never been mariners - no fleet, no traditions, nothing. Then they had this Palantir of Elostirion to gaze over the Sea...

2. I agree about the Ship-Kings, but maybe also it was one of the earlier Gondorians. Atanatar, I think, never wanted anything but easy life and courtly bliss.

3. Umbarians...Hmm...no. One who sought Meneltarma had to believe in its holiness, as the reason why it had been saved, so I guess Black Numenoreans are out of the game. Castamir's sons, I think, were more concerned with more immediate matters - like how to regain the throne of Gondor.

A likely candidate would be a dreamer and lore-master, like Faramir, with the blood of Numenor strong in him. And he should have easy access to ships, and know how to stir one. And he shouldn't be one with much obligations and duties, likely not a Heir to the throne. My guess would be a younger brother/cousin of the Ship-Kings. (And note that in early Gondor descendants of Elendil had to be numerous).

[Earniel]

I agree with Gordis here (shocking, did this ever happen before? ) that of your candidates the ship kings seem most likely, but I doubt the 'seed of Eärendil' means they have to be royality. During the long reign of Númenor, Elros' blood would have mixed through significant part of population, so a descent traced back to Eärendil would have been possible for non-royals as well.

And it is possible that the 'seed of Eärendil' refers to a Dunedan that exhibits a love and interest in the sea and sailing like that of Eärendil rather than have a direct bloodline.

[Valandil]

In defense of Arnor (surprise, surprise! ): I suspect in early years they DID feel a sea-going tradition. It would have been lost after awhile. For ships - even if none of Elendil's foursome had been repaired, they might have made a few others (remember that Elendil ruled in peace for over 100 years before Sauron's forces came from Mordor). If nothing else, they'd have the ship Isildur used in fleeing from Minas Ithil (I wonder where he parked it - most likely Thardbad, but maybe in Lindon).

The Elostirion palantir is one reason I think an Arnorian may have tried it. What if they saw (or thought they) saw the Meneltarma in it? They might want to go to it - but the King may have forbidden them to take the stone along (It looked like it was somewhere around here!). Hmmm... that stone may have also allowed them to watch some lucky/unlucky fellow stumble upon the 'straight road'.

I agree that not all those who made this search were high-born, and that after all those generations, I think a good chunk (maybe even a majority) of the Dunedain would have been descended from Elros. But I suspect some high-borns would have made the attempt, but maybe younger brothers and cousins, rather than eventual heirs ( "Well... I'm eighth in line for Gondor's throne - If I want to make my mark in the world, I'd better do something else" ). And I think these attempts might have been better financed, better equipped and better known.

The rest of the essay is interesting too. Some of those seekers just ended up finding the lands to the east (by going west) and even circumnavigating the world, which was now "bent". I sort of like this account about how we went from a flat earth to a round earth.

Oh - as for Umbarians, I wonder if the prospect of finding the Meneltarma might have legitimized them, in their own eyes at least, as proper Kings of the Dunedain...??

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I agree with Gordis here (shocking, did this ever happen before? )

It happens when we stay away from the subject of Elves and Nazgul.

Yes, I would guess at least a half of Dunedain population in the Third Age were descended from Earendil. Isn't every second Englishman nowadays a descendant of Edward I, popularly known as Longshanks? (or so I heard somewhere)

Originally Posted by Valandil

The Elostirion palantir is one reason I think an Arnorian may have tried it. What if they saw (or thought they) saw the Meneltarma in it? They might want to go to it - but the King may have forbidden them to take the stone along (It looked like it was somewhere around here!). Hmmm... that stone may have also allowed them to watch some lucky/unlucky fellow stumble upon the 'straight road'.

Yes - Straight Road is important here. Note that in the original quote the reason for seeking Meneltarma is given: "because it was said among loremasters that the farsighted men of old could see from the Meneltarma a glimmer of the Deathless Land...."

Now why would one seek Meneltarma if he could gaze upon the undying lands far better via the Palantir? Sort of rules the Arnorians out.

Also: Arnorians always were under strong Elven influence, be it from Rivendell, or the Havens, or both. I don't think Elves would encourage humans to search for a suitable place to peek at Tol Eressea. It is a bit blasphemous... After all, one goes only to look, another would get the same ideas as Ar-Pharazon and would seek to set foot upon Aman. I think maybe Arnor never had a fleet, because the Elves would have resented it. Also the Elven ships preferred to sail to the beginning of the Straight road unobserved by mortals, and in no danger from the pirates.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It happens when we stay away from the subject of Elves and Nazgul.

Ha yes, humans are safe territory.

Now why would one seek Meneltarma if he could gaze upon the undying lands far better via the Palantir? Sort of rules the Arnorians out.

But could anyone look into the Stone of Elostirion just like that? The Palantirs were guarded rather jealously, the one Stone that looks West may not have had the same strategical and useful purpose as the others, but I somehow don't think it was accessible by anyone. So it doesn't rule the Arnorians out entirely. People of Arnor who did not have access to the Stone may have decided to go look for Tol Meneltarma themselves.

Also: Arnorians always were under strong Elven influence, be it from Rivendell, or the Havens, or both. I don't think Elves would encourage humans to search for a suitable place to peek at Tol Eressea. It is a bit blasphemous... .

Except that even the Dunedain not always listened to the Elves.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Except that even the Dunedain not always listened to the Elves.

Well, I guess Arnorians did - most of the time.
Elendil always was a friend of Gil-Galad. Valandil was Elrond's foster-son, and I believe always listened to his "dad's" advice. Maybe the Elven influence had lessened only by the times of Earendur and sons.
But then again, the Elves helped the Dunedain out in 1409 - thus the Arnorians had to feel grateful for some time. Again the Elves helped in 1975 and since then had all the remaining northern Dunedain virtually "in their pocket", maybe even on their direct payroll.

[Earniel]

Channeling Olmer, I see.