Theist/Athiest "what if?" thread

[MrBishop]

OK.
Suppose that you wake up tomorrow and all over the news is a piece...the first ever documented, verified and actual miracle has just occurred. Everyone on the face of the earth knows that something happened because they all heard a GONG go off in their heads at that exact moment (which is what woke you up). This is the real deal, as one would say. Proof that a supreme being exists.

The problem..?

It's not your God, and its not your religion.

*Doesn't matter what the miracle is, but it's impossible to interpret it as your religion*

So...
For the athiests. You were wrong, but then again..so was everyone else. Do you become born-again theists?
For the theists. What do you do about your current beliefs/religion/books/paraphenalia/churches/synagogues/laws etc...?

[Anglorfin]

Well, if the miracle was absolutely and indisputably genuine then I believe there would be quite a bit of chaos. As for myself the answer is easy. being agnostic I'd obviously start to lean toward whatever god figure the miracle is attributed to. Can't say the same about other people but I am going to assume that most people are very stubborn when it comes to religion so not many people will change. Especially atheists who always demand more proof. If there is one ambiguity at all to the miracle then no atheist will believe it.

[Lief Erikson]

I would suppose it to be a false prophet, a witch or wizard, some sort of magic, perhaps the anti-Christ. I believe in miracles that don't come from God- the Bible confirms their existence. So if I saw one that was proven valid, I wouldn't be all that stunned, intellectually. There are plenty of spirits that have the power to pull off miraculous signs and which also pretend to be God.

[MrBishop]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I would suppose it to be a false prophet, a witch or wizard, some sort of magic, perhaps the anti-Christ. I believe in miracles that don't come from God- the Bible confirms their existence. So if I saw one that was proven valid, I wouldn't be all that stunned, intellectually. There are plenty of spirits that have the power to pull off miraculous signs and which also pretend to be God.

It'd depend on scale? Let's say...really huge kinda thing. reminiscent of Biblical era but verifiable. Tower of babel reversed...everyone now speaks the same language and only that language and the races are reunited as one.

What if this deity-like being proved that most accepted religions are wrong or at worst, misinterpretations?

[Falagar]

How 'bout peace in the Middle-east?

I've no idea how I'd react, it'd depend on quite a lot of things I suppose.

[hectorberlioz]

I'm with Leif...one has to be on one's guard.

Btw, I think some atheists would say we were being attacked by aliens who possessed mind-controlling abilities...

[Lief Erikson]

Agreed .

Originally Posted by Mr. Bishop

It'd depend on scale? Let's say...really huge kinda thing. reminiscent of Biblical era but verifiable. Tower of babel reversed...everyone now speaks the same language and only that language and the races are reunited as one.

What if this deity-like being proved that most accepted religions are wrong or at worst, misinterpretations?

Granted one or more super-miracles and proof that most accepted religions are wrong or misinterpretations, I'd really, really lean toward the anti-Christ perspective. The scripture predicts that the Anti-Christ will perform many great miraculous signs with which he will deceive men. He will also call himself God, which is another feature of the entity you describe. For the Anti-Christ to call himself God, he probably would have to say (and considering the devil's resources, probably would provide pretty good evidence) that most accepted religions are wrong or misinterpretations.

Bringing the races together may well also be a sign that he's the Anti-Christ- he is supposed to rule the whole Earth. Or she. I could accept a spiritual or female Anti-Christ, if she, he or it is pulling off the signs you're describing.

[MrBishop]

Personally, If I were the anti-Christ with all those powers and free reign, I wouldn't waste time trying to convince people that I was the creator. I'd start rearranging the furniture so to speak. Making the earth = hell. Highest pain and suffering per capita.

Ending suffering as a ruse? To what end?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by MrBishop

Ending suffering as a ruse? To what end?

I suppose maybe because corrupting people and letting them think you're nice is much more fun.

Say Lief, where did you get all this stuff on the Anti-christ? Revelation?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I suppose maybe because corrupting people and letting them think you're nice is much more fun.

I think evil people tend to do both, what Mr. Bishop suggested and what you're saying. We saw that with Adolf Hitler. He corrupted his people, making them think he was nice, and caused incredible suffering to vast numbers of others. I think Hitler is rather like a type of the Anti-Christ. The Apostle Paul said in the Epistles that even as there is one Anti-Christ who is to come, there are many Anti-Christs in the world . . . those are types of him, people whose lives are like predictions of one who is to come.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Say Lief, where did you get all this stuff on the Anti-christ? Revelation?

Yes, Revelation is the primary source I'm using right now. There's information about the Anti-Christ in many books of the Bible though, Old Testament as well as New. I believe it's the Book of Daniel that predicts the Anti-Christ will claim to be God.

Originally Posted by Mr. Bishop

Personally, If I were the anti-Christ with all those powers and free reign, I wouldn't waste time trying to convince people that I was the creator. I'd start rearranging the furniture so to speak. Making the earth = hell. Highest pain and suffering per capita.

I think if someone had that much power, he very well might care about making others think him to be Creator, because he'd have a big ego. Hitler had hymns in Nazi Germany changed, you know, to replace the word "God" with the word "Fuhrer." He had the common people singing his praises in church, praising him as a deity.

Originally Posted by Mr. Bishop

Ending suffering as a ruse? To what end?

I don't believe that the Anti-Christ will end suffering. I can very, very easily imagine him promising to end suffering, though, and going and feeding millions of hungry people to make himself look good and so expand his political power. But I wouldn't believe him. If you're in charge of a world government, you can do a lot of wicked deeds under the table, even on a huge scale. And if you are a super-being who is in charge of a world government, you probably wouldn't have to worry about freedom of the press getting your actions exposed, either.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by MrBishop

Suppose that you wake up tomorrow and all over the news is a piece...the first ever documented, verified and actual miracle has just occurred.

Interesting supposition, MrBishop. It's fun to speculate about what the reactions would be if this actually happened.

As for my own reactions, I certainly wouldn't believe everything to be the work of Anti-Christ. I guess I'd eventually have to come to terms with the fact that a supreme being exists but I don't think it would make me a more religious person. But then there's no way I could predict how I'd react to such a sensational happening.

[MrBishop]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I think evil people tend to do both, what Mr. Bishop suggested and what you're saying. We saw that with Adolf Hitler. He corrupted his people, making them think he was nice, and caused incredible suffering to vast numbers of others. I think Hitler is rather like a type of the Anti-Christ. The Apostle Paul said in the Epistles that even as there is one Anti-Christ who is to come, there are many Anti-Christs in the world . . . those are types of him, people whose lives are like predictions of one who is to come.

Yes, Revelation is the primary source I'm using right now. There's information about the Anti-Christ in many books of the Bible though, Old Testament as well as New. I believe it's the Book of Daniel that predicts the Anti-Christ will claim to be God.

I think if someone had that much power, he very well might care about making others think him to be Creator, because he'd have a big ego. Hitler had hymns in Nazi Germany changed, you know, to replace the word "God" with the word "Fuhrer." He had the common people singing his praises in church, praising him as a deity.

I don't believe that the Anti-Christ will end suffering. I can very, very easily imagine him promising to end suffering, though, and going and feeding millions of hungry people to make himself look good and so expand his political power. But I wouldn't believe him. If you're in charge of a world government, you can do a lot of wicked deeds under the table, even on a huge scale. And if you are a super-being who is in charge of a world government, you probably wouldn't have to worry about freedom of the press getting your actions exposed, either.

See...you're thinking of the anti-christ as a human being with such failings as ego. Trying to bolster political support...press-releases?

nono. I'm not talking about a human being at all. You're thinking on too small a scale. Omniscient/Omnipresent/Omnipotent... snuff galaxies out by snapping fingers. Something beyond good and evil...something that just IS and everything revolves around it.

[GrayMouser]

If you get the chance, read "Thomas the Proclaimer" ; excellent novella by Robert Silverberg based on just that premise .The miracle is geting the sun to stand still in the heavens for 24 hours; Thomas is a prophet who has manged to get a world-wide prayer for a miracle to show that God exists, and of course, six months later it's back to busines as usual as everybody ends up quarrelling over the meaning.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bishop

nono. I'm not talking about a human being at all. You're thinking on too small a scale. Omniscient/Omnipresent/Omnipotent... snuff galaxies out by snapping fingers. Something beyond good and evil...something that just IS and everything revolves around it.

I find it highly probable that lots of people will think these things are true of the Anti-Christ. Also, the scripture says he'll perform "many great miraculous signs" to prove himself to the world. And he'll rule the world, which will think him to be God. That they might also think him to be beyond good and evil, and omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, is possible to me. Perhaps evil spirits also will know when a galaxy is going to go, and they might tell the Anti-Christ, who could then pretend that he'd done it. I'm just not going to underestimate this guy, and I feel quite sure that an event highly similar to what you describe is going to actually happen in this Earth's history and is going to deceive the vast majority of people in the world.

[Rían]

Good question, Bish! I've been mulling it over and waiting for some time to get in a post. We've been going thru some major decision-making things here lately - looks like we're moving to Arizona!

[Lief Erikson]

When does your family leave?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Good question, Bish! I've been mulling it over and waiting for some time to get in a post. We've been going thru some major decision-making things here lately - looks like we're moving to Arizona!

*waves goodbye* I'll miss knowing your in SoCal, too.

Also, my view on questions like this is that no-one really knows what they would do until it happens, so what's the use?

[Rían]

we're looking at leaving at the end of January, when the school term is over. Kind of hard to believe ... but kinda exciting, too, and we have great family there.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

That's good. It's nice being near family. Especially if they are great.

[Rían]

yeah, the kids love their cousins, and I love my sis and bro-in-law. We're trying to get a place within walking/bikeriding distance to them.

It was fun meeting you, Gwai! I'll have to see if I can manage to bump into Lief before I go, too.