U.S. Immigration

[rohirrim TR]

I was wondering what the local 'mooters' had to say on this issue. Its a fairly big issue in my area because a huge part of our population are legal and illegal immigrant workers.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Here's the L.A. protest march - yes, this is downtown L.A., see the Federal building in the background of the picture? These will be primarily immigrants, illegal as well as legal, mostly from Mexico and Central & South America, mad about the tougher anti-immigration legislation.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/l...-home-headlines

Lotesse posted this link and I'll post some other news links if someone wants some more info.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Down with tough anti-immigration laws, I say.

[Nurvingiel]

Very interesting thread! I don't really know anything about US Immigration, but I will be lurking in this thread, absolutely.

[brownjenkins]

I think we should make immigration much easier and just give citizenship to the ones that are already in-country.

[rohirrim TR]

I'm liking McCain's bill because its really the only practical solution, and its basically the solution that I came up with when I had to write an essay on this topic last semester.

I don't usually agree with McCain but his is the best plan out there at this point that I can see.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I think we should make immigration much easier and just give citizenship to the ones that are already in-country.

so you are in favor of total amnesty?

[Rían]

It's certainly a complex issue - I'll join the lurking crowd ...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

It's certainly a complex issue - I'll join the lurking crowd ...

Lol. And I was just about to commend you for getting involved in these politics discussions! Lol!

[Rían]

I've spent quite a few hours recently going over the school's candy sale for next year. Talk about nasty politics!

The PTA is trying to cut our budget for running the thing in half!?!?! And we bring in over $20,000 for them for school improvements every year! I told the lady in charge of the candy sale that she needs to politely but firmly tell them her terms for heading up the sale, which include keeping the budget from last year, and then it is their choice - they can either accept her with her terms or look for someone else (good luck! Ain't no one wanna take that job!). We, as volunteers, give hundreds of hours of time for our school's benefit, and it is NOT right to drive us into the ground by making us scrounge for things that were in the budget last year. No one wants to head up the thing because of all the stupid politics involved, so she's in a strong position. I told her to USE that strong position. I don't know why the PTF is being so stupid about it. I mean, either take her terms and get $20,000, or don't take the terms and get nothing. Seems like a no-brainer to me ...

[/vent]
(I guess I was in the wrong thread )

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

so you are in favor of total amnesty?

Yes.

The main issues:

1) People come to the US for a better way of life and will continue to no matter what kind of walls and enforcement we put in place. Our resources would be better spent trying to help the countries they are coming from improve their economies so they do not want to leave. The problem is that US corporations like being able to relocate to Mexico and get cheap labor. One way to change this is to force US corporations abroad to respect some of the same labor laws we enforce here in the US, instead of letting them basically do whatever the host country is willing to let them.

2) Since the illegal immigrants in the US are not citizens, they have no rights and employers can and do pay them sub-standard wages. Giving them citizenship would at least force employers to follow US labor laws. Either way, it means more competition for US jobs, but this is a fact we must accept.

3) It will be a painful transition, much like when Germany took down the wall and accepted all the East Germans as citizens, a huge group of people who had a much lower standard of living than those of the West. But, over the long term, it was better for both cultures.

Basically, it is in everyone's interest to eventually have a basic standard of living shared by all the people of the world, and the best way to start is locally and let it expand. The alternative, having poor nation's workers basically subsidize the US standard of living, only leads to more trouble in the future.

BTW ~ I am not saying "corporations are evil". But it is a fact of economics that businesses will always take the route that brings them the most profit. If they can get away with paying a worker $5.00 a day, they will do it. This is why governments and international agreements are necessary balances to the free market.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Has America forgotten? This country would't be the great nation it is without the immagrants. We are all immagrants in a way. The Native Americans are the only ones who can say they are not. This is their land.

[Hasty Ent]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

3) It will be a painful transition, much like when Germany took down the wall and accepted all the East Germans as citizens, a huge group of people who had a much lower standard of living than those of the West. But, over the long term, it was better for both cultures.

Very painful. I honestly think many Americans have NO IDEA how large a percentage of our economy is supported by undocumented workers. Food prices would go up, landscaping services, construction companies, domestic service and cleaning companies would definitely be culled. Fact is, we've become accustomed to living well based on the cheap labor of illegals. I wonder how many of my friends will cancel their weekly house-cleaners, how many of my friends will begin mowing their own lawns and doing their own weeding, how many people will learn to adjust their eating habits and how many home construction projects will go on hold?

In the end, however, I agree with you BJ, -- we should accept these immigrants as citizens. What I would be curious about is how many of them would register to vote, and how would that impact our government. It would be extremely interesting to see, imho. I don't think they would vote as a bloc, but I believe we might see certain issues debated with greater regularity.

[BeardofPants]

From an outsiders POV, I agree with Tom & Doug. This can only lead to further alienation and exploitation, IMO.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Hasty Ent

Very painful. I honestly think many Americans have NO IDEA how large a percentage of our economy is supported by undocumented workers. Food prices would go up, landscaping services, construction companies, domestic service and cleaning companies would definitely be culled. Fact is, we've become accustomed to living well based on the cheap labor of illegals. I wonder how many of my friends will cancel their weekly house-cleaners, how many of my friends will begin mowing their own lawns and doing their own weeding, how many people will learn to adjust their eating habits and how many home construction projects will go on hold?

In the end, however, I agree with you BJ, -- we should accept these immigrants as citizens. What I would be curious about is how many of them would register to vote, and how would that impact our government. It would be extremely interesting to see, imho. I don't think they would vote as a bloc, but I believe we might see certain issues debated with greater regularity.

I agree with y'all for the most part, but I think its good that the latest bill has a "fine" and a slight probation period if I what I read was accurate.

[rohirrim TR]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Has America forgotten? This country would't be the great nation it is without the immagrants. We are all immagrants in a way. The Native Americans are the only ones who can say they are not. This is their land.

you beat me to posting that poem, I used that in my essay last year too, brilliant.

[Nurvingiel]

You make very pursuasive arguments for total amnesty Brownie. I have to say I lean that way myself. I like that Canada's immigration laws aren't too restrictive, though they could use improvements I think.

What would someone say against total amnesty?

Originally Posted by Hasty Ent

Very painful. I honestly think many Americans have NO IDEA how large a percentage of our economy is supported by undocumented workers. Food prices would go up, landscaping services, construction companies, domestic service and cleaning companies would definitely be culled. Fact is, we've become accustomed to living well based on the cheap labor of illegals. I wonder how many of my friends will cancel their weekly house-cleaners, how many of my friends will begin mowing their own lawns and doing their own weeding, how many people will learn to adjust their eating habits and how many home construction projects will go on hold?

I'm not saying that you do either, necessarily, but I don't have any sympathy for someone who, oh horrors, has to mow their own lawn. Aw, poor ickle muffin has to clean his own house. Tear. Here's the smallest violin in the world, playing just for them. *rubs thumb and index finger together*

[Hasty Ent]

LOL... I won't shed any tears for anyone that needs to mow their own lawn, either, Nurvingiel. Of course, I loathe lawns anyway and figure that anyone who has one deserves to suffer. But that's another thread.

However, don't underestimate the spoiled and lazy individual who will shudder in horror at the thought of washing his/her own floors, or clipping his/her own hedges. Over the years I've been amused at the sensitive, delicate creatures I've run across that simply MUST have central air conditioning, and simply MUST have cable/satellite/whatever television, and simply MUST have the finest of wine with dinner. And of course we can't forget the clothing sprees with every change of season, and latest electronic gadget that's a must-have. The malls and shops are filled with people buying buying buying stuff they want, but don't need. As prices climb and it becomes harder to satisfy every whim, these people will feel what they think is real pain, I don't doubt it. And serves them right, too, as far as I'm concerned. It would do most people good to know REAL hunger for a short while, and REAL poverty, and REAL deprivation so that they learn the difference between satsifying their wants and providing for their needs.

[Oz!]

everyone seems to concentrate on the borders....

make immigration easier.....make hiring illegal immigrants as workers a federal offence (because, at the moment, farmers and industry owners are laughing all the way to the bank, dodging minimum wage laws by hiring illegal immigrants, hell, most private home owners too, who don't want to pay minimum wage for a gardener/maid etc).... you only have an immigrant problem because the US is the easiest option for them to make money, illegally...... hit the ones who are flaunting the system, not the ones who are desperate enough to risk punishment crossing a border, because they are that desperate to find work.

[Hasty Ent]

Originally Posted by Oz!

hit the ones who are flaunting the system, not the ones who are desperate enough to risk punishment crossing a border, because they are that desperate to find work.

THAT is certainly worth repeating, and I wholeheartedly agree. *nods emphatically*

edit: I do have to mention, however, there have been cases of individuals contracting with agencies that were unscrupulous. They assumed the workers were documented and paid a good wage, meanwhile the agencies were taking advantage of the powerless.

[Oz!]

of course, it'll never happen....... you remove cheap labour from a country, and all that happens is that industry etc hitch up their skirts and move to where the cheap labour is, it's happened to a score of countries around the world (including the UK).....and i have no doubt the american govt is very aware of the economic implications of actually removing illegal immigrant workers from it's system...... sucks if you are an honest US citizen.... but, i guess that's the way it goes.