Moria naming error?

[Rían]

I was reading thru some Tolkien websites and came across an intriguing question pointing out a possible slip on JRRT's part (it's so tempting to try and find them!) -

If the Elves of Hollin were friendly with Durin's folk in Khazad-dum, and the name Moria (black chasm/pit) wasn't given until many years later, why does it say "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" on the doors?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I was reading thru some Tolkien websites and came across an intriguing question pointing out a possible slip on JRRT's part (it's so tempting to try and find them!) -

If the Elves of Hollin were friendly with Durin's folk in Khazad-dum, and the name Moria (black chasm/pit) wasn't given until many years later, why does it say "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" on the doors?

The Elves of Holin were (among other things) practical jokers. Moria was an inside joke which was misunderstood by the Dwarfs and lead to a series of misunderstandings between elfs and dwarfs.

(I really do not have a better reason than that.)

[trolls' bane]

Sounds good enough for me.

[Valandil]

Probably just a bit of liberality with the translation... those gathered knew the place as 'Moria', so Gandalf translated it as Moria??

(or do the letters on the picture spell out 'Moria' in Elvish... probably do, don't they?)

[Rían]

that's what I thought at first, but then remembered the letters on the picture spell Moria in Elvish! (I had translated JRRT's picture myself before and remembered)

[Artanis]

Does it say anywhere that the name Moria was given many years later than the death of Celebrimbor?

The Elves of Hollin were friends with the Dwarves, but that didn't stop them of making their own names of the mountains, and presumably not of Khazad-Dum either. Though the name was given without love, I don't think it was given with malice. To the Elves, the Dwarrowdelf was a Black Chasm.

[brownjenkins]

i don't have the books on hand... but i thought that in the appendix (durin's folk or tale of years) it mentioned the name "moria" first being used after the balrog chased the dwarves out

[Spock]

Khazad-dum was called the Dwarrowdelf in Westron and Hadhodrond in Sindarin, although the more usual Elvish name, especially after the freeing of the Balrog, was Moria. From the latter name came the Westron Black Pit, Black Chasm, and Mines of Moria......Tolkein's world from A-Z

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i don't have the books on hand... but i thought that in the appendix (durin's folk or tale of years) it mentioned the name "moria" first being used after the balrog chased the dwarves out

That's what I thought too, but I've searched and found nothing but this, where it doesn't say when the Elves started using the name:

It is to mark this that I have ventured to use the form dwarves, and so remove them a little, perhaps, from the sillier tales of these latter days. Dwarrows would have been better; but I have used that form only in the name Dwarrowdelf, to represent the name of Moria in the Common Speech: Phurunargian. For that meant 'Dwarf-delving' and yet was already word of antique form. But Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar, though they might at need, in their bitter wars with the Dark Power and his servants, contrive fortresses underground, were not dwellers in such places of choice. They were lovers of the green earth and the lights of heaven; and Moria in their tongue means the Black Chasm. But the Dwarves themselves, and this name at least was never kept secret, called it Khazad-dûm, the Mansion of the Khazad; for such is their own name for their own race, and has been so, since Aulë gave it to them at their making in the deeps of time.

Spock, is your source Robert Foster's book? Does he give any references?

[Rían]

From HoME 11, WOTJ ...

(oh, all RIGHT - History of Middle Earth Vol. 11 - The War of the Jewels) ...

Greatest of all the mansions of the Naugrim was Khazaddum, that was after called in the days of its darkness Moria ...

(that was by JRRT, not CT)

So it seems like it wasn't called Moria until after the Roggie got loose ...

The corresponding passage in the Sil seems to be chpt 10, "Of the Sindar" -

Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazaddum, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria...

and again in the Sil, in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" -

Eregion was nigh tothe great mansions of the Dwarves that were named Khazad-dum, but by the Elves Hadhodrond, and afterwards Moria.

[Artanis]

Thanks for the reference RÃ*an!
The mystery remains yet unsolved then.

[Rían]

You're welcome - book indexes are sure nice!!! As long as I have a faint memory of reading something somewhere, I can usually find it with the help of the indexes

It sure seems like there might have been a mistake, don't you think? Esp. since it gives the previous Elven name (Hadhodrond). Seems odd, though - it's hard to believe that with how careful Tolkien was, that this was a mistake. But I've missed it all these years, too!

In the Sil appendix, it says that "hadhod" was a rendering of Khazad into Sindarin sounds, and "rond" is a vaulted or arched roof, or a large hall with a roof like that (cf. Aglarond).

Khazad - the name of the Dwarves in their own language.

[Artanis]

Perhaps Tolkien changed his mind on when the name was used, as he changed his mind in many other things regarding Middle Earth. But I think it is unlikely, he said many times that he felt himself bound by the published material in LotR. So it's probably a slip. Even the professor is human.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Spock, is your source Robert Foster's book? Does he give any references?

Yes it is but he only references the books in the trilogy.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Perhaps Tolkien changed his mind on when the name was used, as he changed his mind in many other things regarding Middle Earth. But I think it is unlikely, he said many times that he felt himself bound by the published material in LotR. So it's probably a slip. Even the professor is human.

Part of why I like him

[Spock]

....what about us half humans?

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

You're welcome - book indexes are sure nice!!! As long as I have a faint memory of reading something somewhere, I can usually find it with the help of the indexes

Oh, and I was thinking you all had some program I didn't know about, like those bible programs where you can look up scriptures by typing in a keyword.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Spock

....what about us half humans?

I like you, too!

(hey, I"m half-elven! )


That would sure be nice, trolls' bane - I hear rumors of LOTR being in a word document *innocent look* but I don't think HoME books are, or the Sil.

[trolls' bane]

I'd buy it right away! Then I don't have to buy individual books. Just print em out!

[Beregond]

how did you get it into a word document? or did you spend along time writing it out?