Dragonslayers of Middle Earth

[Valandil]

A thought just rambled through my brain the other day:

Turin... slew Glaurung
Eärendil... slew Ancalagon
Fram... slew Scatha
Bard... slew Smaug

To the best of my knowledge, that's a full accounting of the known dragon-slayings of Middle-Earth.

The common thread... they're all Men - as in Human! None that we know of slain by an Elf or Dwarf... or anything else! The only one not entirely Human was Eärendil, and I've always considered him more Man than Elf - even though he was half - maybe because of his Human father (akin to how I see Eldarion, son of Aragorn and Arwen, as definitely Human). But all three of the others... entirely men!

What do you guys think of this? Did the feats of Men begin to surpass those of Elves, even while the Elves were still lingering in Middle Earth?

[Adonai Dragonwagon]

I always thought that was Tolkien's point; that although the elves were the wisest, men ruled the world. (Especially at the time in which the trilogy is set.)

[Gordis]

It is an example of the elven policy. They always preferred humans to do the hard and dirty work instead of the precious elves.

[Nurvingiel]

Maybe they were just in the right place at the right time (plus extremely skillful warriors), as is wont to happen in Middle-earth.

That certainly applies to Bard. It was one part fate, one part skill for him. He had the knowledge from the thrush, he was extremely skilled with the bow, cool as a cucumber when it really counted, and he had the lucky black arrow.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Turin went searching for Glaurung though, although I suppose it was lucky that Beleg met Gwindor to take him to Nargothrond.

[Elemmírë]

That's an interesting question.

For the most part, I agree with Nurvs. They were in the right place at the right time (except maybe for Turin).

Also, I think part of it was that the Noldor really were unable to do much of anything, as shown by the Prophecy of the North (whether or not this actually caused it or just prophecied it is up for debate, of course).

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by gordis

It is an example of the elven policy. They always preferred humans to do the hard and dirty work instead of the precious elves.

Oh, that is so uncalled for!

Let's look at the context here, shall we?

Glaurung: was on his way to Turin's human village at time of death. So naturally it would be Men defending it, not Elves.

Ancalagon: His slayer, Eärendil, can be counted among both Elves and Men. Leaning toward Men because of his father but nevertheless choosing Elves because of his wife. Now, if I recall correctly, he made his choice before going to war. So technically Ancalagon was killed by an Elf, not a Man. Technicality, I know, but there you have it.

Scatha: very little info to go on. I do not recall where it took place but I'm guessing either the Northern Wastes or in the vicinity of the Iron Hills, maybe between the Hills and the river Running. No Elves in the area except those of Mirkwood, I don't see any reason for them to leave their woods to go killing dragons unless they're attacked.

Smaug: Again, slain while attacking a human village. The Mirkwood Elves had no business there.

I think this frees the Elves of any accusations that it was merely their policy. It definitely speaks for Tolkien's dragons that no one purposefully went around slaying dragons like wandering knights in medieval-related literature. Dragons only seemed be killed when there was absolutely no way to escape them or let them be.These were really scary, powerful beasts, and you don't mess with them unless you're desperate enough to.

[Valandil]

So the Elves just... did such a nice job staying out of the dragons' way?

[Earniel]

As I'm quite sure Humans, Dwarves, Ents, Eagles, and every other sensible creature did when they could. Who in there right mind would go look for Dragons, excepting 13 silly Dwarves and a Hobbit?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Oh, that is so uncalled for!
Let's look at the context here, shall we?
Glaurung: was on his way to Turin's human village at time of death. So naturally it would be Men defending it, not Elves.
Smaug: Again, slain while attacking a human village. The Mirkwood Elves had no business there.
I think this frees the Elves of any accusations that it was merely their policy.

Uncalled for?
Glaurung, if I remember it right, took a very active part in Dagor Bragollach and razed Nargothrond, which was not a human village. So the Elves had good reason to try and slay him.
Smaug. Mirkwood elves's host appeared immediately after they heard about Smaug's death to get the treasures of Erebor. But they didn't attempt to kill Smaug themselves.
Yes I think that Elves did treasure their precious lives much more than humans.

[Nurvingiel]

They weren't there to get the treasure, they were there IMO to help make sure the whole situation didn't get completely out of hand. Rioting and fighting between the Men of Laketown was not something they'd want on their borders.

Everyone knew Smaug was dead, and everyone knew he had a treasure. (Even though half the population of Laketown didn't believe he existed until he attacked them.) It quickly had the chance to become a free-for-all. Not to mention the catalyst of the troublesome Dwarves, who caused enough trouble for King Thranduil (entering his lands without leave*, surprising his people, apparently sneaking up on them, then refusing to state their business plainly) to warrant being thrown into his dungeons, from which they escaped by completely mysterious means.

Though it's true that Thranduil probably had a weakness for treasure, the only piece of dragon treasure he left with was the necklace Bilbo gave him after the Battle of Five Armies in payment, Bilbo said, for the food he filched. King Thranduil didn't have a legitimate claim to the treasure, and he didn't make any claims either (IIRC). In my opinion, he was there to help police a very volitile situation on his borders.

Further, it's entirely possible he knew something of the orcs' activities (that Gwahir mentioned), which would make the situation even worse, and convince Thranduil that a large army should be present there.

* I'm not entirely sure how one would obtain leave, but I think that the Elves wouldn't have bothered Bilbo and the Dwarves had they stuck to the Road.

In short, I think your accusations against Thranduil are unfair.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

They weren't there to get the treasure...Though it's true that Thranduil probably had a weakness for treasure, the only piece of dragon treasure he left with was the necklace Bilbo gave him after the Battle of Five Armies in payment, Bilbo said, for the food he filched. King Thranduil didn't have a legitimate claim to the treasure, and he didn't make any claims either (IIRC). ...In short, I think your accusations against Thranduil are unfair.

Well, he didn't make any claims for the treasure because Thorin was yet alive and Dain arrived with an army. As for Thranduil's original intentions, remember the Raven's news? : "So much for joy, Thorin Oakenshield. You may go back to your halls in safety; all the treasure is yours-for the moment. But many are gathering hither beside the birds. The news of the death of the guardian has already gone far and wide, and the legend of the wealth of Thror has not lost in the telling during many years; many are eager for a share of the spoil. Already a host of the elves is on the way, and carrion birds are with them hoping for battle and slaughter.

But I was not so much accusing Thranduil of greed, as of selfishness, characteristic for all the Elves (Finrod being the only exception). The Dragon killed almost all the Dwarves of Erebor and was slowly eating the remaining people of Dale, several per night, but no help has ever come from their good neighbour and business partner Thranduil…until the Dragon was killed by a man.

[rohirrim TR]

I believe the silmarillion mentions the folk of durin slaying dragons in the battles of the first age, the dwarve make big masks so they were protected from the flame and were able to hew them with their axes but they never had a single dragon slayer because they worked as a team to take down the children of glaurung

[Radagast The Brown]

The dwarves mentioned only faught the first dragon and the only one that existed in that war, Glaurung... and didn't kill him, just wounded him. He ran away to Angband and recovered.

[Findegil]

It is right that Azaghal did not kill Glaurung, but Glaurung was by no means the only Dragon in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. We are not told if any of the other Dragons were killed but they all fled with Glaurung back to Angband. Beside that Azaghal was not of Durins Folk. He was the King of Belegost and thus the head of one of the six other houses of the Dwarves.

What seems to be more telling is the conversation between Gandalf and Thorins & Co. given in "The Quest to Erebor" in "Unfinished Tales". Thorin said there something to the effect that Dwarves had have more to do with Dragons than any other people and when Gandalf speaks of a Hobbit as companien Balin exclaimed that a Hobbit would not even dare to come near a nacked dragon-babe just come of the egg-shell.
So the dwarves had learned some lesson about dragons in their war against them (2570 - 2589 3rd Age).

Respectfully
Findegil

[Beor]

Also, I dont really know if any of the "things" that attacked Gondolin could be considered dragons, but I am pretty sure that some elves killed some of them (of course, there were apparently a hell of a lot of Balrogs too).

by the way, what do you call a host of Balrogs? YOu know, like a murder of crows, or a flock of geese. Is it a hell of Balrogs? Your thoughts please.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Valandil

So the Elves just... did such a nice job staying out of the dragons' way?

No some thousands of elves were killed by dragaons in battles and the following ravaging during the first age, Incluing evles that sough them out in battle. No doubt many dragons were slain by elves, partiocularly during the attack on Gondolin and during the War of Wrath (in both non flying and flying dragons participated in numbers). (The 'other reality' of The book of lost Tales with the more detailed Fall of Gondolin specificly recount the slaying of at least one dragon by Elves.)

[ItalianLegolas]

Tolkien was obviously racist towards elves.

No, seriously, I agree with Lefty, I'm sure that dragons were slain by Elves, it just isn't documented

[Lefty Scaevola]

Most of it done during large battles, rather that televison quality indivdual hero exploit.

[Pytt]

Agree with Lefty here. I thought there were more dragons than the one who are mentioned here, and I think the elves were perfectly capable of killing one.