The Shibboleth of Fëanor

[Rían]

I did a search and didn't see a thread on this.

I absolutely ADORED this work! It's in HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle Earth (POME). It's filled with all the stuff I like - linguistic history, looks into the lives of first-age elves, history and derivation of names, complete with translation styles into other languages, and a fascinating account of a mysterious little incident with Fëanor's youngest son.

And a hilarious comment about someone's hair!

I really disliked Fëanor - I was angry with what I thought were foolish and selfish decisions - but this work gave me a huge amount of understanding and insight and compassion for him - and then turns around and drops that little Umbarto gem on us!

Who else likes this work? I was thinking about it again recently because El just ordered POME and a bunch of pages were missing - right in the Shibboleth!!

[Kirinki54]

I really like it! For all your reasons and more...

One thing is that hidden link between LotR and the old mythology. Fëanor begged thrice for a tress of Galadriel´s hair but was rejected. Gimli asked once for one hair - and was given three. Sort of wraps up things nicely...

[Elemmírë]

This is the very first Shibboleth thread...?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Who else likes this work? I was thinking about it again recently because El just ordered POME and a bunch of pages were missing - right in the Shibboleth!!

Luckily, it was just the first ten or so pages missing. Annoying, yes, but at least I've read some of it. Unfortunately, there's been no contact from Barnes & Nobles... so I have no idea when they're sending a new copy...

I loved what I did read of it.

I'll certainly keep up with the thread, RÃ*an, but I don't have access to the story at the moment... You're going to have to brief me on what your discussing!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Kirinki54

I really like it! For all your reasons and more...

One thing is that hidden link between LotR and the old mythology. Fëanor begged thrice for a tress of Galadriel´s hair but was rejected. Gimli asked once for one hair - and was given three. Sort of wraps up things nicely...

I LOVE that little bit!!

For me, it created such a poignant picture of Fëanor's heartbreak over his mother, and how miscommunications piled up to the exploding point (for example, thinking Indis was dropping the Þ sound to insult his mother, when she was only doing it to show honor to her new husband).

Indis was a Vanya, and it might be thought that she would in this point at least have pleased Fëanor, since the Vanyar adhered to Þ. Nonetheless Indis adopted s. Not as Fëanor believed in belittlement of Miriel, but in loyalty to Finwë.

El - maybe I had my search parameters to only this year ... but I don't think there was a recent thread on the Shibboleth anyway.

[Elemmírë]

The Shibboleth definitely cements my impression of Fëanor:

arrogant, selfish idiot.

I love all the names that show up...I've got quite a taste for Quenya. It's somewhat neat how Nerdanel finally gave the name "Umbarto" for one of the twins... Goes with the whole idea of predestination, methinks. She seems to have been quite the prophetess.

[Falagar]

I love the Shibboleth, used to have quotes from it in my sig..."Fell and fey you have become"...

Originally Posted by Elemmire

arrogant, selfish idiot.

Hey, Fëanor was very interested in politics!

Originally Posted by Elemmire

She seems to have been quite the prophetess.

All elvish mothers had some insight in what would become of their child, the mother's name usually reflects this (it was MÃ*riel who named Fëanor 'Fire-spirit', for example).

[Rían]

It is just SO Professor Tolkien to "hunt down" the backstory behind a linguistic change and dig up the "true" reasons behind it - really fun!

I love how the first three paragraphs are the "detective work" behind the change from s to Þ - things like noting the Ñoldor lived between the Vanyar and the Teleri in Valinor, and thus could not be unfamiliar with the sound. Then he says, "The change Þ to s must therefore have been a conscious and deliberate change agreed to and accepted by a majority of the Ñoldor, however initiated, after the separation of their dwellings from the Vanyar." I love how he himself is immersed into his secondary reality world!

I also love how he describes how the change started, but was "attacked by the loremasters, who pointed out that the damage this merging would do in confusing stems and their derivatives that had been distinct in sound and sense had not yet been sufficiently considered." I just picture these Elvish loremasters having a violent committee meeting about this and it makes me smile

It's also interesting that the chief linguistic loremaster was - guess who - Fëanor! Which starts to hint at the reason why the change was made ...

[Rían]

(SGH, your Shibboleth is caaaaallllllling you.....)

[Rían]

And more ...

so after the description of the loremasters' discussion, it says this :

The chief of the linguistic loremasters at that time was Fëanor. He insisted that Þ was the true pronunciation for all who cared for or fully understood their language. But in addition to liguistic taste and wisdom he had other motives.

That last sentence is so great - you can just hear the ominous music ...

And Fëanor's objections are so typical of him - "you don't care for our language, and/or don't even understand it, if you don't like the Þ!"

Then the essay gets into the story of Finwë, MÃ*riel and Indis ...

Interesting description of Fëanor's actions after MÃ*riel's death :

During the time of his sorrow Finwë had little comfort from Fëanor. For a while he also had kept vigil by his mother's body, but soon he became wholly absorbed again in his own works and devices.

I can just picture Fëanor by his mother - concentrating on her at first, then maybe coming but bringing a book or something, then missing a day here and there, then back into his own world of himself! It's natural to have grief lessen, but it just seems that in Fëanor's case, it was lessened by self-absorption. It's interesting how it was also said that :

it is not recorded that he attended the Debate [on Finwë and Indis' marriage because of MÃ*riel's choice to die] or paid heed to the reasons given for the judgement, or to its terms except in one point: that MÃ*riel was condemned to remain for ever discarnate, so that he could never again visit her or speak with her, unless he himself should die.

Of course this would make him sad, but again, he seems to never want to see the whole picture, only the part that is about HIMSELF.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

That last sentence is so great - you can just hear the ominous music ...

And Fëanor's objections are so typical of him - "you don't care for our language, and/or don't even understand it, if you don't like the Þ!"

Seeing as how that was the part of my book that was missing , why exactly did Fëanor think that the Þ was the proper pronunciation?

[Rían]

[snooty Fëanor voice]Well, it's obvious that if you TRULY cared about and understood the language, you would KNOW! [/snooty Fëanor voice]

It doesn't say - it just says,

How this ill will grew and festered in the years that followed is the main matter of the first part of The Silmarillion: the Darkening of Valinor. Into the strife and confusion of loyalties in that time this seemingly trivial matter, the change of Þ to s, was caught up to its embitterment, and to lasting detriment to the Quenya tongue. Had peace been maintained there can be no doubt that the advice of Fëanor, with which all the other loremasters privately or openly agreed, would have prevailed. But an opinion in which he was certainly right was rejected because of the follies and evil deeds into which he was later led. He made it a personal matter: he and his sons adhered to Þ, and they demanded that all those who were sincere in their support should do the same. Therefore those who resented his arrogance, and still more those whose support later turned to hatred, rejected his shibboleth.

Interesting that JRRT was so emphatic that Fëanor's opinion was right!

I also like this little note on Finarfin -

Her [Galadriel's] father Finarfin, however, loved the Vanyar (his mother's people) and the Teleri, and in his house Þ was used, Finarfin being moved by Fëanor neither one way or the other but doing as he wished.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

[snooty Fëanor voice]Well, it's obvious that if you TRULY cared about and understood the language, you would KNOW! [/snooty Fëanor voice]

It doesn't say - it just says,
Interesting that JRRT was so emphatic that Fëanor's opinion was right!

As much as I hate Fëanor, I have to admit that he is surely an intriguing character. I know in what I did read in PoMe (I think it was in the Shibboleth) he was noted as one of the greatest linguists, if not the greatest in truth. Interesting how the greatest is also the worst. I love the symmetry.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I also like this little note on Finarfin -

That definitely fits with his character, not to allow Fëanor to affect him either way... I'm assuming that Fingolfin refused to switch to the þ?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

As much as I hate Fëanor, I have to admit that he is surely an intriguing character.

I agree!

That definitely fits with his character, not to allow Fëanor to affect him either way... I'm assuming that Fingolfin refused to switch to the þ?

Yuppers!

Anyone heard any Castillains (from Spain) speak? They use the þ. I assume Fat Middle has heard them. My sister-in-law from Spain imitates them sometimes.

[Falagar]

You don't know how much it means to me to hear you say that.

I'm taking spanish-classes (not heard many natives yet though), it's my impression that the þ is becoming less used in Spain (though still strong many other spanish-speaking countries)

[Rían]

Gee, I was hoping more people liked the Shibboleth ...

this thread isn't exactly taking off!

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Falagar

You don't know how much it means to me to hear you say that.

I bet... I'll correct myself. He's an intriguing idiot.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Gee, I was hoping more people liked the Shibboleth ...

this thread isn't exactly taking off!

As soon as I get my book back...

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Interesting description of Fëanor's actions after MÃ*riel's death : I can just picture Fëanor by his mother - concentrating on her at first, then maybe coming but bringing a book or something, then missing a day here and there, then back into his own world of himself! It's natural to have grief lessen, but it just seems that in Fëanor's case, it was lessened by self-absorption.

That is not how I pictured Fëanor at all when I read this. I saw him as overwhelmed with a grief so great that it was almost unbearable, and I saw him trying to lessen his sorrows by delving into his work. I think his dedication to his work was a way to cope with the fact that she would not come back. He had no one to comfort him, Finwë was of little help, being immensed in his own sorrow at first and then occupied with his new love. Who else than Fëanor himself in Valinor could understand the feeling of the loss of a mother?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Gee, I was hoping more people liked the Shibboleth ...

I don't think that many people here have actually read the Shibboleth RÃ*an. I just saw this thread - I don't visit as often as before. But I like the Shibboleth, the story of Finwë and MÃ*riel is interesting because it shows that even in Valinor everything was not blissful, and even high and respected Elf Lords as Finwë had faults. Also, the debate between the Valar is definately a good read, and illustrates their different personalities. I also find the descriptions that is given of all of Finwë's descendants very valuable, their names and their characteristics and so on.

I'd like to ask a question to everyone. Do you think the Valar did right when they let Finwë marry Indis?

[Rían]

Wow, that's a tough question ... Tolkien, thru many of his characters, put forth opinions supporting both sides!

I'll have to think a bit more, but I think I might remain undecided! What do you think, Arty?

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Artanis

I'd like to ask a question to everyone. Do you think the Valar did right when they let Finwë marry Indis?

That's kind of like the question concerning whether or not the Valar were right to bring the Eldar to Aman. Personally, I think it's one of those situations where no one choice is "right" and the other "wrong."

In this case, IMO, allowing Finwë to remarry was the less "wrong" choice. It is hard to say what would have happened had the descendants of Indis never lived; perhaps Fëanor would not have been as susceptible to the jealousy and rage that later conquered him completely.

Still, it depends on what you consider good. I don't think it can be considered completely bad that the children and grandchildren of Indis existed.

It's one of those decisions that has both good and bad consequences, that's as far as I can take it.

I have a question now:

Fëanor considered the old "þ" to be more correct than the "s". Technically speaking, yes, the "þ" was the more accurate way of speaking. However, in reality is it actually more correct? Is something right because it has history, or because it is presently in use?

Should everyone who speaks English switch back to "thou" and "thee" because it's the more accurate way of using the singular form? (I'm sure Chrys wouldn't mind. )

[Rían]

I got the feeling that it was more of an artistic judgement that the þ was correct for the language. Further on in the Shibboleth, it states something like the Noldor wouldn't use their Quenya names in Sindarin country because it was artistically jarring, in a sense, so they converted their names.