Gandalf's second staff

The Wizard from Milan · 02-05-2005, 06:14 PM

In the movie, when Gandalf and Saruman meet for the first time. Saruman takes away Gandalf's staff.
But after Gandalf is freed by the eagle Gandalf has a staff identical to the fist one. How did that happen? Did Gandalf make a new one identical to the first one?
(I know that in the book there is no suggestion on Gandalf being deprived of his staff, I am just asking from the point of view of the movie internal coherence)

***Valandil*** · 02-05-2005, 06:31 PM

Maybe we should call this thread, "Gandalf's Multiple Staffs"!

The first one would have been taken by Saruman.

The second one would have fallen with him at Moria.

He got a third one after that.

Now... all that follows with the book too, so Tolkien didn't have a problem with him 'finding' or making an identical (or equivalent) staff at need.

However - in the EE of ROTK, the third one gets blown away by the Witch-King, which requires him to have had a fourth after that!

The Wizard from Milan · 02-05-2005, 06:41 PM

That is not my understaning.
In the book Gandalf does not loose his staff to Saruman. Nor does he loose his staff falling in Moira

Am I wrong?

***Valandil*** · 02-06-2005, 12:05 AM

The books don't explicitly say that he lost them at those two times... but I can't imagine Saruman letting him take it up to the top of Orthance... and I don't see how he could have it still after the events of fighting the Balrog and the things that happened to him afterwards. Nor is it mentioned that someone else in the fellowship picked it up for him at Moria and gave it back to him when he returned.

Wayfarer · 02-06-2005, 12:37 AM

Lazy prop crew.

**Nurvingiel** · 02-06-2005, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

The books don't explicitly say that he lost them at those two times... but I can't imagine Saruman letting him take it up to the top of Orthance... and I don't see how he could have it still after the events of fighting the Balrog and the things that happened to him afterwards. Nor is it mentioned that someone else in the fellowship picked it up for him at Moria and gave it back to him when he returned.

The events surrounding Gandalf's imprisonment by Saruman are quite hazy - there's a reason it's all told in a flashback.

As for Moria, I always assumed that it fell with him and he somehow managed to keep it during the battle (he would need it). When he was sent back it was beside him in the snow... that's how I pictured it anyway.

ItalianLegolas · 02-06-2005, 11:36 AM

I believe in the movies he would have actually had four

first one taken by Saruman
second one lost in MOria
third one broken by the Witch King in Minas Tirith
fourth one for the rest of the movie!!!

SO MANY STAFFS!!

Halbarad of the Dunedain · 06-04-2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

The books don't explicitly say that he lost them at those two times... but I can't imagine Saruman letting him take it up to the top of Orthance... and I don't see how he could have it still after the events of fighting the Balrog and the things that happened to him afterwards. Nor is it mentioned that someone else in the fellowship picked it up for him at Moria and gave it back to him when he returned.

You said you can't see how he could have had his staff after the fall in Moria and durring imprisonment on Orthanc but in the films and in the book Gandalf retains his sword Glamdring! I think if Gandalg can manage to hold on to his sword then he can certainly hold on to his primary "weapon", his staff.

Gordis · 06-05-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

You said you can't see how he could have had his staff after the fall in Moria and durring imprisonment on Orthanc but in the films and in the book Gandalf retains his sword Glamdring! I think if Gandalg can manage to hold on to his sword then he can certainly hold on to his primary "weapon", his staff.

Very interesting observation. I admit I have forgotten about Glamdring. It looks like that persons that are more-than-men (maiar, ringwraiths) can carry things while in the shadow world. Sauron, it seems, managed to retrieve the One from the Fall of Numenor, when his body perished. The ringwraiths while they were traveling through Anorien UNCLAD and unmounted and invisible to eyes (UT) were not weaponless, I believe.

So perhaps the spirit of Gandalf carried Glamdring and the staff in the shadow world and then made them reappear again in the real world of light.

Hmm, not very convincing, if I say so myself...

me9996 · 02-14-2005, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

Maybe we should call this thread, "Gandalf's Multiple Staffs"!

The first one would have been taken by Saruman.

The second one would have fallen with him at Moria.

He got a third one after that.

Now... all that follows with the book too, so Tolkien didn't have a problem with him 'finding' or making an identical (or equivalent) staff at need.

However - in the EE of ROTK, the third one gets blown away by the Witch-King, which requires him to have had a fourth after that!

You'd think a modatrater would know this...

He was given a staff as he was sent as a white wizzard...
As for how he got his staff back after isenguard...
I gess he called it and it came...

Elemmírë · 02-15-2005, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by me9996

You'd think a modatrater would know this...

He was given a staff as he was sent as a white wizzard...
As for how he got his staff back after isenguard...
I gess he called it and it came...

A modatrater? What's a modatrater?

What you stated I don't think is correct in any case, so you needn't attack Valandil. Olórin was most likely not sent back to ME with a staff. In fact, he says himself "Naked I was sent back." (The White Rider, The Two Towers). This implies that he in fact was not returned with his staff.

I agree with Nurvingiel that it was probably next to him in the snow, though I wonder how hard it actually is to make a staff.

The "fourth" time, well... That's anyone's guess...

I suppose he just carried extras...

Halbarad of the Dunedain · 02-15-2005, 03:41 AM

I don't think they have an explaination for the return of the "stolen" staff after the imprisonment on Orthanc. Also Gandalf may or may not have lost his "second" staff after the fall in Moria. Regaurdless he was mortaly killed which results in Gandalf becoming "The White" and returning to Middle-Earth and forming a new staff for his new power. I don't think the Valar sent the staff with him I think it was made in Lorien when he was clothed by Galadriel.
I do have another series of questions regaurding the staves... What power do the staves really have? Why is it so neccessary for an Istari to have his staff? If Gandalf could make (possibly) 3 staves then why would Saruman be so devistated after Gandalf breaks his, couldn't he just make a new one? Finally are the staves powers and use similar to Saurons ring? In the formation of the staves does a portion of the Istari's power flow into the staff?

Attalus · 02-15-2005, 03:55 PM

I believe Gandalf actually meant was that his Power to make staffs (that were magical) was broken. He was cast from the Order of Istari, and, trapped in a mortal body, would have needed some focus of magical power. He doesn't cast any magic in the Shire that we know of, or he would have sent the Hobbits packing. As Frodo guessed (or had been briefed by Gandalf), the only power that he had left was his Voice.

me9996 · 02-15-2005, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

A modatrater? What's a modatrater?

What you stated I don't think is correct in any case, so you needn't attack Valandil. Olórin was most likely not sent back to ME with a staff. In fact, he says himself "Naked I was sent back." (The White Rider, The Two Towers). This implies that he in fact was not returned with his staff.

I agree with Nurvingiel that it was probably next to him in the snow, though I wonder how hard it actually is to make a staff.

The "fourth" time, well... That's anyone's guess...

I suppose he just carried extras...

Attacking? If I were attacking this would be a problem.

Anyway, I gess the elves gave his the staff to replase the one lost in moria.

**Nurvingiel** · 02-15-2005, 07:14 PM

Maybe the Valar send him another one...

Gandalf: Erm... I lost my staff again.
Yavanna: Again?
Gandalf: Yeah... *suffles feet*
Yavanna: It's okay, I expected that and have one ready for you already. It's in a care package along with a lemon loaf and extra socks.

hectorberlioz · 06-06-2005, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

In the movie, when Gandalf and Saruman meet for the first time. Saruman takes away Gandalf's staff.
But after Gandalf is freed by the eagle Gandalf has a staff identical to the fist one. How did that happen? Did Gandalf make a new one identical to the first one?
(I know that in the book there is no suggestion on Gandalf being deprived of his staff, I am just asking from the point of view of the movie internal coherence)

Finally! It's about time somebody noticed this staff bussiness.

02-05-2005, 06:14 PM	#1
The Wizard from Milan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 421	Gandalf's second staff In the movie, when Gandalf and Saruman meet for the first time. Saruman takes away Gandalf's staff. But after Gandalf is freed by the eagle Gandalf has a staff identical to the fist one. How did that happen? Did Gandalf make a new one identical to the first one? (I know that in the book there is no suggestion on Gandalf being deprived of his staff, I am just asking from the point of view of the movie internal coherence)

02-05-2005, 06:31 PM	#2
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Maybe we should call this thread, "Gandalf's Multiple Staffs"! The first one would have been taken by Saruman. The second one would have fallen with him at Moria. He got a third one after that. Now... all that follows with the book too, so Tolkien didn't have a problem with him 'finding' or making an identical (or equivalent) staff at need. However - in the EE of ROTK, the third one gets blown away by the Witch-King, which requires him to have had a fourth after that! __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

02-06-2005, 12:05 AM	#4
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	The books don't explicitly say that he lost them at those two times... but I can't imagine Saruman letting him take it up to the top of Orthance... and I don't see how he could have it still after the events of fighting the Balrog and the things that happened to him afterwards. Nor is it mentioned that someone else in the fellowship picked it up for him at Moria and gave it back to him when he returned. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

02-06-2005, 12:37 AM	#5
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Lazy prop crew. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-06-2005, 11:36 AM	#7
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	I believe in the movies he would have actually had four first one taken by Saruman second one lost in MOria third one broken by the Witch King in Minas Tirith fourth one for the rest of the movie!!! SO MANY STAFFS!! __________________ What was lost is now found.

02-05-2005, 06:41 PM	#3
The Wizard from Milan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 421	That is not my understaning. In the book Gandalf does not loose his staff to Saruman. Nor does he loose his staff falling in Moira Am I wrong?

02-15-2005, 03:41 AM	#12
Halbarad of the Dunedain Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Arthedian Posts: 460	I don't think they have an explaination for the return of the "stolen" staff after the imprisonment on Orthanc. Also Gandalf may or may not have lost his "second" staff after the fall in Moria. Regaurdless he was mortaly killed which results in Gandalf becoming "The White" and returning to Middle-Earth and forming a new staff for his new power. I don't think the Valar sent the staff with him I think it was made in Lorien when he was clothed by Galadriel. I do have another series of questions regaurding the staves... What power do the staves really have? Why is it so neccessary for an Istari to have his staff? If Gandalf could make (possibly) 3 staves then why would Saruman be so devistated after Gandalf breaks his, couldn't he just make a new one? Finally are the staves powers and use similar to Saurons ring? In the formation of the staves does a portion of the Istari's power flow into the staff? __________________ "Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen

02-15-2005, 03:55 PM	#13
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I believe Gandalf actually meant was that his Power to make staffs (that were magical) was broken. He was cast from the Order of Istari, and, trapped in a mortal body, would have needed some focus of magical power. He doesn't cast any magic in the Shire that we know of, or he would have sent the Hobbits packing. As Frodo guessed (or had been briefed by Gandalf), the only power that he had left was his Voice. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

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