Middle earth conections

me9996 · 01-12-2005, 05:35 PM

Do you think that middle earth and C.S. Lewises "Narnia" are in the same world? J.R.R. Tolken and C.S. Lewis where friends!

This is my most far feched tread yet!

Embladyne · 01-12-2005, 05:38 PM

I think it is unlikely that Tolkien and Lewis set their stories in the same world. You have read The Chronicles of Narnia, no?
Although they were good friends, they wrote separate stories for which separate worlds were required to make up the context.
I'm pretty sure you know this, and are just posting to raise discussion, but I don't see how much discussion can really be accomplished on this topic.

Wayfarer · 01-12-2005, 05:52 PM

Well... Tolkien's Middle Earth was supposed to have been Our Earth in the indescribably ancient past.

CS Lewis's Narnia stories were centered around children from Our Earth that went to other worlds through whatever means.

So they wouldn't have been the same world, but simply taking the way they are presented there would have been a connection between the two.

Embladyne · 01-12-2005, 05:59 PM

well, if the discusion goes in that direction, that's a fun thing to talk about, Wayfarer.

Wayfarer · 01-12-2005, 06:08 PM

Also, in the last book of 'The Space Trilogy' by CS Lewis, the character Merlin claims to be a descendant of Numenore, implying, again, that the world is the same as Middle Earth (and the stories are also rather similar, involving conflicts between the 'elvish' folks who respect goodness and beauty and the 'orcish' folks who want to take control of the world in order to 'modernize' it in much the same way sauron did - through tyranny and thought control)

Manveru · 01-12-2005, 06:32 PM

there are some similarities between the two(like how they were both created by songs) but there are tonnes of differences (Narnia is in a flat world but Middle-earth turns round after numenor is destroyed). perhaps the 'emperor beyond the sea' is really Manwe and Aslan is a Maiar

ItalianLegolas · 01-12-2005, 06:40 PM

now that is a streeeeeeeeeetch.

Embladyne · 01-12-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manveru

perhaps the 'emperor beyond the sea' is really Manwe and Aslan is a Maiar

I like that

inked · 01-12-2005, 10:23 PM

Lewis does refer to Numinor as noted. JRRT commented that this was a direct borrowing by Lewis but that the spelling Lewis gave it was a result of hearing it and not reading it!

I am afraid the Aslan as Maiar will not function though. Aslan is the Son of the Emperor beyond the Sea. In Middle Earth, Eru is not incarnated until ages and ages after LoTR. This is the part that Tolkien said he would not dare to write! Though there are intimations of the anticipation in a prophecy in MORGOTH'S RING, "The Dialog of Finrod and Andreth" -

"The One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This [the Wise] say also, or they feign, is a rumor that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing."

Now, when Eru enters Arda, and not until then, we have the equivalent of Aslan in Narnia. Remember that when the eldest Pevensie children are told they will not be returning to Narnia, Aslan tells them to look for Him in their world under another name. And recall that for those who have trod the Uttermost Sea to Aslan's Country there waits The Son of the Emperor over the Sea in the guise of a milk-white Lamb!

Tolkien's world of ME is in OUR world three to four ages ago(pre-incarnational, patriarchal-monotheistic) and is NOT equivalent to Narnia (post-Incarnational, Trinitarian). Each world (though not each story!) has the same Creator but is in a different stage of revelation, if I may use theological terms to distinguish the apparent differences.

me9996 · 01-13-2005, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manveru

there are some similarities between the two(like how they were both created by songs) but there are tonnes of differences (Narnia is in a flat world but Middle-earth turns round after numenor is destroyed). perhaps the 'emperor beyond the sea' is really Manwe and Aslan is a Maiar

No, a valar!

P.S.
One thing to sumport this treary is that in middle earth the wild is in the north and east and in Narnia it's to the north and west.

P.P.S.
The haradim and colermeans are a lot alike to!

P.P.P.S.
If this "P.P.P.S." thing is bad gramer then gandalf has it to!

inked · 01-13-2005, 09:57 PM

Yo, Dudes!

Aslan would be Eru. See above post by me for the long winded note.

Forkbeard · 01-14-2005, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by me9996

No, a valar!

P.S.
One thing to sumport this treary is that in middle earth the wild is in the north and east and in Narnia it's to the north and west.

P.P.S.
The haradim and colermeans are a lot alike to!

P.P.P.S.
If this "P.P.P.S." thing is bad gramer then gandalf has it to!

Nothing unusual about these things though. The north--whether west or east--is the place out of which evil comes in many mythologies--including the Bible and a good deal of medieval literature. So that two medievalists and two Christian authors should in their own creative work use the north as the place where wild and evil things are should occasion no surprise.

The haradrim and carlormen are indeed a lot alike---again, the bad guy for the great majority of middle and high medieval lit and early modern lit is the Muslim--specifically the Turk who were such a threat to Christian Europe. Again that two professional medievalists well steeped in medieval literatures should have enemy peoples who look a lot like a real world enemy in the literature they teach isn't surprising either.

Manveru · 01-15-2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Yo, Dudes!

Aslan would be Eru. See above post by me for the long winded note.

so Eru is the son of the Emperor beyond the sea?? Aslan could be Orome, who was the only Valar to go that far east

Beregond · 01-15-2005, 03:48 PM

I dont think they were meant to be the same world. however Treebeard is actually meaant to be tolkiens way of describing C.S. Lewis so he put him in the LOTR and hence invented the ents

inked · 01-15-2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manveru

so Eru is the son of the Emperor beyond the sea?? Aslan could be Orome, who was the only Valar to go that far east

NOPE, and NOPE. See post #9 in this thread.

Beregrond,

Have you read CS Lewis' space trilogy? The chief protagonist, Ransom, is based by Lewis on JRR Tolkien! Very interesting to compare Treebeard and Ransom, I think. They are so similar and yet each is unique. In this regard, the Ransom in Perelandra is particularly like Treebeard facing Saruman, I think.

me9996 · 01-18-2005, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

NOPE, and NOPE. See post #9 in this thread.

Beregrond,

Have you read CS Lewis' space trilogy? The chief protagonist, Ransom, is based by Lewis on JRR Tolkien! Very interesting to compare Treebeard and Ransom, I think. They are so similar and yet each is unique. In this regard, the Ransom in Perelandra is particularly like Treebeard facing Saruman, I think.

Then does that mean treebeard is like Tolken?

Embladyne · 01-18-2005, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by me9996

Then does that mean treebeard is like Tolken?

I think not. I think the point was to compare the way the authors chose to portray each other in their own work...I need to read Perelandra, but have no money really left over from buying text books, so I hope the library has them.

inked · 01-19-2005, 11:07 AM

Ransom = Tolkien

Treebeard = Lewis

That is the way the character development worked for each of the authors in their works. It is a starting point of ideas and it is fun to see the similarities and differences. I suspect there are other portrayals of various Inklings had we but the wit to see them!

me9996 · 02-14-2005, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Lewis does refer to Numinor as noted. JRRT commented that this was a direct borrowing by Lewis but that the spelling Lewis gave it was a result of hearing it and not reading it!

I am afraid the Aslan as Maiar will not function though. Aslan is the Son of the Emperor beyond the Sea. In Middle Earth, Eru is not incarnated until ages and ages after LoTR. This is the part that Tolkien said he would not dare to write! Though there are intimations of the anticipation in a prophecy in MORGOTH'S RING, "The Dialog of Finrod and Andreth" -

"The One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This [the Wise] say also, or they feign, is a rumor that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing."

Now, when Eru enters Arda, and not until then, we have the equivalent of Aslan in Narnia. Remember that when the eldest Pevensie children are told they will not be returning to Narnia, Aslan tells them to look for Him in their world under another name. And recall that for those who have trod the Uttermost Sea to Aslan's Country there waits The Son of the Emperor over the Sea in the guise of a milk-white Lamb!

Tolkien's world of ME is in OUR world three to four ages ago(pre-incarnational, patriarchal-monotheistic) and is NOT equivalent to Narnia (post-Incarnational, Trinitarian). Each world (though not each story!) has the same Creator but is in a different stage of revelation, if I may use theological terms to distinguish the apparent differences.

I think you're working backwards...

me9996 · 03-16-2005, 08:50 PM

Anyone still here?

01-12-2005, 05:38 PM	#2
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	I think it is unlikely that Tolkien and Lewis set their stories in the same world. You have read The Chronicles of Narnia, no? Although they were good friends, they wrote separate stories for which separate worlds were required to make up the context. I'm pretty sure you know this, and are just posting to raise discussion, but I don't see how much discussion can really be accomplished on this topic. __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

01-12-2005, 05:52 PM	#3
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Well... Tolkien's Middle Earth was supposed to have been Our Earth in the indescribably ancient past. CS Lewis's Narnia stories were centered around children from Our Earth that went to other worlds through whatever means. So they wouldn't have been the same world, but simply taking the way they are presented there would have been a connection between the two. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-12-2005, 05:59 PM	#4
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	well, if the discusion goes in that direction, that's a fun thing to talk about, Wayfarer. __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

01-12-2005, 06:08 PM	#5
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Also, in the last book of 'The Space Trilogy' by CS Lewis, the character Merlin claims to be a descendant of Numenore, implying, again, that the world is the same as Middle Earth (and the stories are also rather similar, involving conflicts between the 'elvish' folks who respect goodness and beauty and the 'orcish' folks who want to take control of the world in order to 'modernize' it in much the same way sauron did - through tyranny and thought control) __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-12-2005, 06:32 PM	#6
Manveru Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 256	there are some similarities between the two(like how they were both created by songs) but there are tonnes of differences (Narnia is in a flat world but Middle-earth turns round after numenor is destroyed). perhaps the 'emperor beyond the sea' is really Manwe and Aslan is a Maiar __________________ Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland

01-12-2005, 06:40 PM	#7
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	now that is a streeeeeeeeeetch. __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-12-2005, 10:23 PM	#9
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Lewis does refer to Numinor as noted. JRRT commented that this was a direct borrowing by Lewis but that the spelling Lewis gave it was a result of hearing it and not reading it! I am afraid the Aslan as Maiar will not function though. Aslan is the Son of the Emperor beyond the Sea. In Middle Earth, Eru is not incarnated until ages and ages after LoTR. This is the part that Tolkien said he would not dare to write! Though there are intimations of the anticipation in a prophecy in MORGOTH'S RING, "The Dialog of Finrod and Andreth" - "The One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This [the Wise] say also, or they feign, is a rumor that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing." Now, when Eru enters Arda, and not until then, we have the equivalent of Aslan in Narnia. Remember that when the eldest Pevensie children are told they will not be returning to Narnia, Aslan tells them to look for Him in their world under another name. And recall that for those who have trod the Uttermost Sea to Aslan's Country there waits The Son of the Emperor over the Sea in the guise of a milk-white Lamb! Tolkien's world of ME is in OUR world three to four ages ago(pre-incarnational, patriarchal-monotheistic) and is NOT equivalent to Narnia (post-Incarnational, Trinitarian). Each world (though not each story!) has the same Creator but is in a different stage of revelation, if I may use theological terms to distinguish the apparent differences. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 01-12-2005 at 10:35 PM. Reason: additons for clarity of expression

01-13-2005, 09:57 PM	#11
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Yo, Dudes! Aslan would be Eru. See above post by me for the long winded note. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

01-15-2005, 03:48 PM	#14
Beregond Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: England Posts: 28	I dont think they were meant to be the same world. however Treebeard is actually meaant to be tolkiens way of describing C.S. Lewis so he put him in the LOTR and hence invented the ents

01-19-2005, 11:07 AM	#18
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Ransom = Tolkien Treebeard = Lewis That is the way the character development worked for each of the authors in their works. It is a starting point of ideas and it is fun to see the similarities and differences. I suspect there are other portrayals of various Inklings had we but the wit to see them! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

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