'Subtle and quick to anger'

[Attalus]

This is a duplicate thread to one that I posted at SF-Fandom. Always interesting to compare responses.

Odd word, subtle. Its meanings are quite varied but are subtly interrelated. The American Heritage dictionary gives these definitions:

sub·tle
adj. sub·tler, sub·tlest

1a. So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive: a subtle smile.
b. Difficult to understand; abstruse: an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent.
2. Able to make fine distinctions: a subtle mind.

3. Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever.
4a. Crafty or sly; devious.
b. Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way; insidious: a subtle poison.

Which definition do you think that JRRT waas meaning when he had Gildor say : "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger?"

I favor a combination: 1b, 2 and 3, with a touch of 4a, especially in Saruman's case. What do you think?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Which definition do you think that JRRT waas meaning when he had Gildor say : "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger?"

I favor a combination: 1b, 2 and 3, with a touch of 4a, especially in Saruman's case. What do you think?

I think we have to take into consideration the situation in which Gildor spoke those words. He has just learned that there is something going on on a large scale, and that gandalf is involved but failed to return to the Shire as he promised, and that there are Black Riders about. And now he is facing a Hobbit who is pursued by these very Black Riders, and who asks for his advice. This he does only reluctantly, because he is afraid of giving advice in a case where his knowledge and understanding is limited. So I think the point Gildor wanted to get across was the meaning of 1b or 3.

But if we talk about WIzards in General, then I would say that they are all different, and that the adjective "subtle" would not be fitting to describe them all. Saruman, yes, and then in the meaning of 4a and 4b. But then there is Radagast. From the little that we know about him, I would not call him a subtle wizard.

[ItalianLegolas]

In Sarumans case, it is definitley 4a and b , but in Gandalf's case, he is everytihng except 4a and b, and Radagast is just oblivious to the evils of the world, and the 2 blue wizards we never hear anything about, so we can't tell

[Holbytla]

1 a), b) and 3 are suitable to describe Gandalf in my opinion. Did Gildor know what Gandalf was? Only Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel knew? So in Gildor's case G would be difficult to describe, difficult to understand, but definately considered clever?

And is it possible to include Sauron, being one of the Maiar, though not considered a Wizard? Maybe all of the definitions would fit him? Perhaps with an ecxeption from 2 at the end of the War?

Holbytla

[Attalus]

Hmmm, I never thought of Sauron (or Melkor) as subtle but they were definitely wizards and necromancers. 2 and 4 a&b, definitely.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Attalus

This is a duplicate thread to one that I posted at SF-Fandom. Always interesting to compare responses.

Odd word, subtle. Its meanings are quite varied but are subtly interrelated. The American Heritage dictionary gives these definitions:

sub·tle
adj. sub·tler, sub·tlest

1a. So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive: a subtle smile.
b. Difficult to understand; abstruse: an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent.
2. Able to make fine distinctions: a subtle mind.

3. Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever.
4a. Crafty or sly; devious.
b. Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way; insidious: a subtle poison.

Which definition do you think that JRRT waas meaning when he had Gildor say : "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger?"

I favor a combination: 1b, 2 and 3, with a touch of 4a, especially in Saruman's case. What do you think?

On this one I prefer the way Webster's phrases it:
2b: having or marked by keen insight and ability to penetrate deeply and thoroughly.

Such a description fits all the wizards, I think.

In case you're curious the word comes from Latin, sub and tela, cloth, web, the warp, the loom, and figuratively takes on a meaning of "the plan".

The Latin adj. subtilis describes something fine, and refined.

The Middle English Dictionary gives the following 2 definitions:

1.

(a) Of a person, the intellect, etc.: penetrating; ingenious; perspicacious; sophisticated, refined; of the sight: sharp, keen; of a speaker: articulate, persuasive; ~ doctour, a title of Raymond of Montpellier; (b) of an argument, a question, calculation, etc.: sophisticated, refined; profound; intricate, involved; abstruse, difficult; (c) mysterious; marvelous; on ~ wise, mysteriously; (d) as noun: one who is mentally acute; also, refined people; the sotileste, the most sophisticated group.

2a.

(a) Of a person: cunning, crafty; skillful, clever; ~ in (of, to), skilled in (sth.); ~ wise, crafty; (b) of an act, a craft, etc.: cunning, clever; refined, skilled; of ingenuity: clever, inventive; of a look: sly, furtive; of a route: secret [1st quot.]; of a paintbrush: cleverly employed; in ~ wise, secretly; (c) cleverly designed; skillfully executed; intricately made, finely wrought; delicate; also, of the design of female clothes: fantastic; (d) of music, a musical note: exquisite, graceful; of verse: skillfully wrought; (e) as adv.: cleverly, intricately; ~ wrought.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Hmmm, I never thought of Sauron (or Melkor) as subtle but they were definitely wizards and necromancers.

Then you do not limit the term "wizard" to the Istari? Even though Gildor did not know what Gandalf really was, I think he may have had knowledge about the Order that he represented.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Then you do not limit the term "wizard" to the Istari? Even though Gildor did not know what Gandalf really was, I think he may have had knowledge about the Order that he represented.

I am using it in its broader sense. Actually, I had never thought of them that way, before. Now I know why JRRT came to regret calling the Istari 'wizards.' Even Gothmog is said to have learned great sorcery, and the Witch-King, well... I think that I will revert to using 'wizards' to the Istari and classify those others as 'sorcerers' and 'necromancers,' though it might be a distinction without a difference, as JRRT hinted someplace.

Forkbeard, great post. :thumbsup:

[ItalianLegolas]

they should have just been called 'Wise-Men' or something..., or if he was gonna call them wizards, he should have applied the same title (or at least sorceror) to Sauron

[Wayfarer]

*bonk*

Sauron was a sorcerer (and a necromancer). You can't simply call the Istari 'Wise Men' because, first of all, they weren't men (they were Maiar), and they were only a small subset of the group known as 'The wise' (several others of which were male).

[ItalianLegolas]

then they could be the "Wise-Maiar" or something

[Wayfarer]

Except they weren't. Only Olorin was singled out for his wisdom - Curinur was known for his craft and cunning, Aiwendil (Sp) for... something else. But while they were accounted among 'The Wise', that's really because any Maiar would have been eligible for admission to that group.

[Elemmírë]

What's wrong with the term "wizard" anyway?

IMO, it doesn't refer to sorcery (though that could very well be incorporated, considering...), but to wisdom. The root from which the word is derived means "wise" (same as witch and wicca, methinks). Wayfarer has a point though, that they all can't be accounted with the same wisdom.

btw, Wayfarer: Aiwendil is spelt correctly. You've got a bit of a typo right now with Curunir, though.

[Attalus]

Yes, according to dictionary.com, 'wise' and 'wizard' come from the same root. The term means:
1. One who practices magic; a sorcerer or magician.
2. A skilled or clever person: a wizard at math.
3. Archaic. A sage.

All of those pretty much describe the Istari. Tolkien came to regret the designation as too narrow, and too much identified with what Sauron did. I, however, fail to see what other word he could use, except the word he invented, Istari, and that would have just confused first-time readers. "If that dratted Istar would just leave him alone, he could develop some Hobbit-sense."

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Sorry this is slightly off topic but I didn't want to start an entirely new thread that would not last too long and considering this is a bout one who is Subtle and quick to anger...

"Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not."

Gandalf says this [not entirely sure when or where but,] and it raised a question in my mind... Mithrandir among the elves, we know that the elves do call him this we see that in the books. Olórin we know is a name from a time before he became an Istari, when he was a maia in Valinor. Tharkûn was what the dwarves called him even though we never got many chances of seeing dwarves. However it says "in the South Incánus" where exactlly is south!? Gandalf says he does not go into the east so does that mean hw does not go into Harad, Rhun, or Mordor? If that is the case then would Gondor not be "south"? Yet when we see Gandalf in Gondor everyone calls him Mithrandir.[Faramir, Denethor, etc.] So... where is the south that Gandalf is called Incánus!?

[Attalus]

I have always assumed that he was talking about Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange. Further, I have always assumed that he was speaking of Mordor as "The East." I am, however, open to correction.

[ItalianLegolas]

well, i don't think that MOrdor was always being implied when he 'the east' was written, because, there were lands east of Mordor even

[squinteyedsoutherner]

I think if you were Sauron you would think 4a and b the most accurate descriptions of Gandalf. It all depends on your perspective.

[ItalianLegolas]

question: if gandalf was allowed to take on sauron one on one, who would have won?

[Attalus]

I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested that Gandalf was a match one on one for Sauron. He himself said, after the episode wwith the palantir, that he was not ready for such an encounter, if he should ever be so. But, when it counted, he prevailed.