Tolkien's ?Mistake?

elvishfaerie3088 · 07-31-2004, 09:44 PM

I think Tolkien might have made a mistake in his books...i can't remember which paticular book so i'm just posting this here.

Remember how Tolkien tells us that Hobbits don't recieve gifts on their birthdays instead they give gifts to their friends and family members who come to celebrate? Well then how come Smeagol and Deagol fight over THE Ring doesn't Deagol say he's already given Smeagol his birthday present and that this is his? Did Tolkien contridict himself or did i misread something?

***Valandil*** · 07-31-2004, 11:01 PM

After being separated for about 1700 years before Bilbo's birthday party, and maybe 1100 or 1200 years before Deagol found the Ring, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Shire Hobbits had developed different customs from the descendants of the Stoors who crossed from eastern Eriador back over the Misty Mountains and into the area of the Gladden... which included Deagol and Smeagol.

Lefty Scaevola · 08-01-2004, 12:07 AM

The customs described in the Hobbit were shire customs, we have little infromation on custom of Hobbits outside the late third age Shire and Bree. Deagol is separated by over a thousand years, and some hundreds of miles from Bilbo.

Radagast The Brown · 08-01-2004, 06:31 AM

Actually, it was more like 600 years. Still, a big enough difference to make some customs change.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-01-2004, 09:22 AM

Wasn't there actually some question as to whether Smeagol and Deagol were evern Hobbits? In Gandalf's account to Frodo concerning Gollum, he states it as an assumption, doesn't he?

Attalus · 08-01-2004, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Wasn't there actually some question as to whether Smeagol and Deagol were evern Hobbits? In Gandalf's account to Frodo concerning Gollum, he states it as an assumption, doesn't he?

Oh, no! Another round of 'Was Gollum a Stoor?' fight. Somebody call Bacchus and Rob Roy. For the record, I think Gollum was a sort of proto-Hobbit, the missing link between Hobbits and Men.

BTW, the Letters has a long, too long to quote here, explication of Shire Hobbits' birthday customs, but this definitely was within the bounds of tthose customs. He touches on Smeagol-Deagol, too.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-03-2004, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Oh, no! Another round of 'Was Gollum a Stoor?' fight. Somebody call Bacchus and Rob Roy.

LOL! You crack me up Doc.

Michael Martinez · 08-04-2004, 12:41 PM

Gollum was a full-fledged Hobbit. Not a "proto-Hobbit", primitive Hobbit, pseudo-Hobbit, or anything else. He was a Stoor. Gandalf's comment about Gollum's people being akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors is made in the context of "the Stoors of the Shire" (which context has been established by the Prologue). Gollum was not a Stoor of the Shire. His people were descended from a group of Stoors who passed back over the Misty Mountains from Eriador without ever having settled in Arthedain.

As far as birthday gifts are concerned, Tolkien answered the question in one of his letters. Gollum's people did not observe the same birthday customs as the Hobbits of the Shire did. So, there was no mistake in the text.

Attalus · 08-04-2004, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Gollum was a full-fledged Hobbit. Not a "proto-Hobbit", primitive Hobbit, pseudo-Hobbit, or anything else. He was a Stoor. Gandalf's comment about Gollum's people being akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors is made in the context of "the Stoors of the Shire" (which context has been established by the Prologue). Gollum was not a Stoor of the Shire. His people were descended from a group of Stoors who passed back over the Misty Mountains from Eriador without ever having settled in Arthedain.

As far as birthday gifts are concerned, Tolkien answered the question in one of his letters. Gollum's people did not observe the same birthday customs as the Hobbits of the Shire did. So, there was no mistake in the text.

I was going by that, and by the "Hobbits don't cheat" comment of Frodo's. He certainly was wicked for a Hobbit, but there are bad apples in every barrel, as Sam might say.

***Valandil*** · 08-04-2004, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attalus

...and by the "Hobbits don't cheat" comment of Frodo's. He certainly was wicked for a Hobbit, but there are bad apples in every barrel, as Sam might say.

Even that statement I take as Frodo's perception of a 'proper' Hobbit, or how a Shire Hobbit should act, in his experience... not a definitive statement about the make-up of Hobbits (like the famous 'Vulcans cannot tell a lie' thing from Star Trek - and Spock was actually lying to say so

). A Hobbit would be as capable of cheating as any Dwarf or Man... or even Elf I guess, as a Maia or Vala could fall...

Beruthiel's cat · 08-04-2004, 02:16 PM

Another excellent, thought-provoking thread, Val!!! I was going to say (before I read all the replies) that Gollum/Smeagol's people were related to hobbits (with some distance between them) or were an earlier version of the Shire hobbits...certainly as such (and because of the time element) there would be cultural and customary differences.

But it's very interesting to see the discussions...and now I'm not so sure about it anymore!!

***Valandil*** · 08-04-2004, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beruthiel's cat

Another excellent, thought-provoking thread, Val!!!

But... it's not my thread!

Beruthiel's cat · 08-04-2004, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valandil

But... it's not my thread!

It's all right, Val. I'll blame you for it anyway. I always do!!!

(Sorry, elvishfairy -- I'll blame the new job...no, let's blame Val!!!

)

Attalus · 08-04-2004, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beruthiel's cat

! I was going to say (before I read all the replies) that Gollum/Smeagol's people were related to hobbits (with some distance between them) or were an earlier version of the Shire hobbits...certainly as such (and because of the time element) there would be cultural and customary differences.

But it's very interesting to see the discussions...and now I'm not so sure about it anymore!!

Ah, yes, a familiar phenomenon. The more you know, the less that you are sure of.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-21-2004, 05:01 PM

Another 'MISTAKE' that I've found is at Helms Deep Gimli says he has had nothing but wood to chop since Moria whereas when Legolas and Gimli found Aragorn and Boromir on Parth Galen Legolas said that they had hunted and killed many orcs but were more needed here. Anyway Tolkien was writing this for over 16 yrs. Can't he make a few mistakes?

Haradrim · 08-21-2004, 05:13 PM

That is odd. I wonder why Gimli said that, I mean it doenst furtherr the plot in any way so it just seems to be a useless mistake. oh well!

Michael Martinez · 10-13-2004, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Another 'MISTAKE' that I've found is at Helms Deep Gimli says he has had nothing but wood to chop since Moria whereas when Legolas and Gimli found Aragorn and Boromir on Parth Galen Legolas said that they had hunted and killed many orcs but were more needed here. Anyway Tolkien was writing this for over 16 yrs. Can't he make a few mistakes?

He probably made more than a few mistakes, but the book doesn't specifically say that Gimli slew any Orcs at Parth Galen. So, we can let Tolkien off on a technicality.

And he didn't really spend 16 years on the story. He started it in December 1937 and finished the primary narrative in 1948, so he only spent about 11 years working on it.

The appendices required another 1-2 years' worth of work.

Lefty Scaevola · 10-13-2004, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Another 'MISTAKE' that I've found is at Helms Deep Gimli says he has had nothing but wood to chop since Moria whereas when Legolas and Gimli found Aragorn and Boromir on Parth Galen Legolas said that they had hunted and killed many orcs but were more needed here.

That could just be Gimli's mistake, internal to the story.

***Valandil*** · 10-13-2004, 11:30 PM

Or maybe it's Gimli's sense of humor showing through... with a bit of a slam on how challenging it was to fight those particular orcs.

Attalus · 10-14-2004, 10:47 AM

Yeah, I've always put that down to Dwarvish hyperbole.

07-31-2004, 09:44 PM	#1
elvishfaerie3088 Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: NO where and every where! Posts: 413	Tolkien's ?Mistake? I think Tolkien might have made a mistake in his books...i can't remember which paticular book so i'm just posting this here. Remember how Tolkien tells us that Hobbits don't recieve gifts on their birthdays instead they give gifts to their friends and family members who come to celebrate? Well then how come Smeagol and Deagol fight over THE Ring doesn't Deagol say he's already given Smeagol his birthday present and that this is his? Did Tolkien contridict himself or did i misread something? __________________ "This is the day you will all remember that you almost caught Captain Jack Sparrow" Elizabeth: "Will!" Will: "Elizabeth!" Jack: "Monkey!" "It's captain Jack Sparrow, captain..." "If you were waiting for the opportune moment that was it." Red coat, "Impersonating a judge." Jack: (Oh, ya that was fun look on his face) "Do us a favour...i know it's hard...but stay here and try not to do...anything...stupid." "Yes...but why is the rum gone?!" "WELL IT BLOODY IS NOW!" ~~Elvish Faerie~~

07-31-2004, 11:01 PM	#2
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	After being separated for about 1700 years before Bilbo's birthday party, and maybe 1100 or 1200 years before Deagol found the Ring, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Shire Hobbits had developed different customs from the descendants of the Stoors who crossed from eastern Eriador back over the Misty Mountains and into the area of the Gladden... which included Deagol and Smeagol. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

08-01-2004, 06:31 AM	#4
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Actually, it was more like 600 years. Still, a big enough difference to make some customs change. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

08-01-2004, 09:22 AM	#5
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Wasn't there actually some question as to whether Smeagol and Deagol were evern Hobbits? In Gandalf's account to Frodo concerning Gollum, he states it as an assumption, doesn't he? __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

08-04-2004, 12:41 PM	#8
Michael Martinez Elven Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 892	Gollum was a full-fledged Hobbit. Not a "proto-Hobbit", primitive Hobbit, pseudo-Hobbit, or anything else. He was a Stoor. Gandalf's comment about Gollum's people being akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors is made in the context of "the Stoors of the Shire" (which context has been established by the Prologue). Gollum was not a Stoor of the Shire. His people were descended from a group of Stoors who passed back over the Misty Mountains from Eriador without ever having settled in Arthedain. As far as birthday gifts are concerned, Tolkien answered the question in one of his letters. Gollum's people did not observe the same birthday customs as the Hobbits of the Shire did. So, there was no mistake in the text. __________________ http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ http://www.michael-martinez.com/ http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

08-01-2004, 12:07 AM	#3
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	The customs described in the Hobbit were shire customs, we have little infromation on custom of Hobbits outside the late third age Shire and Bree. Deagol is separated by over a thousand years, and some hundreds of miles from Bilbo.

08-04-2004, 02:16 PM	#11
Beruthiel's cat mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: New York's beautiful North Coast -- we're all mad here!!! Posts: 635	Another excellent, thought-provoking thread, Val!!! I was going to say (before I read all the replies) that Gollum/Smeagol's people were related to hobbits (with some distance between them) or were an earlier version of the Shire hobbits...certainly as such (and because of the time element) there would be cultural and customary differences. But it's very interesting to see the discussions...and now I'm not so sure about it anymore!! __________________ "Never try to out-stubborn a cat!" -- R. Heinlein ~~~~~~~~~ "But I don't want to be among mad people, " Alice remarked. "Oh, but you can't help that," said the Cat; "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." ~~ Lewis Carroll ~~~~~~~~~~~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana...

08-21-2004, 05:01 PM	#15
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Another 'MISTAKE' that I've found is at Helms Deep Gimli says he has had nothing but wood to chop since Moria whereas when Legolas and Gimli found Aragorn and Boromir on Parth Galen Legolas said that they had hunted and killed many orcs but were more needed here. Anyway Tolkien was writing this for over 16 yrs. Can't he make a few mistakes?

08-21-2004, 05:13 PM	#16
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	That is odd. I wonder why Gimli said that, I mean it doenst furtherr the plot in any way so it just seems to be a useless mistake. oh well! __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

10-13-2004, 11:30 PM	#19
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Or maybe it's Gimli's sense of humor showing through... with a bit of a slam on how challenging it was to fight those particular orcs. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

10-14-2004, 10:47 AM	#20
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Yeah, I've always put that down to Dwarvish hyperbole. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

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