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#1 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NO where and every where!
Posts: 413
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Tolkien's ?Mistake?
I think Tolkien might have made a mistake in his books...i can't remember which paticular book so i'm just posting this here.
Remember how Tolkien tells us that Hobbits don't recieve gifts on their birthdays instead they give gifts to their friends and family members who come to celebrate? Well then how come Smeagol and Deagol fight over THE Ring doesn't Deagol say he's already given Smeagol his birthday present and that this is his? Did Tolkien contridict himself or did i misread something?
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#2 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
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After being separated for about 1700 years before Bilbo's birthday party, and maybe 1100 or 1200 years before Deagol found the Ring, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Shire Hobbits had developed different customs from the descendants of the Stoors who crossed from eastern Eriador back over the Misty Mountains and into the area of the Gladden... which included Deagol and Smeagol.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#3 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
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The customs described in the Hobbit were shire customs, we have little infromation on custom of Hobbits outside the late third age Shire and Bree. Deagol is separated by over a thousand years, and some hundreds of miles from Bilbo.
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#4 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
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Actually, it was more like 600 years. Still, a big enough difference to make some customs change.
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#5 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
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Wasn't there actually some question as to whether Smeagol and Deagol were evern Hobbits? In Gandalf's account to Frodo concerning Gollum, he states it as an assumption, doesn't he?
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#6 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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#7 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#8 |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
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Gollum was a full-fledged Hobbit. Not a "proto-Hobbit", primitive Hobbit, pseudo-Hobbit, or anything else. He was a Stoor. Gandalf's comment about Gollum's people being akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors is made in the context of "the Stoors of the Shire" (which context has been established by the Prologue). Gollum was not a Stoor of the Shire. His people were descended from a group of Stoors who passed back over the Misty Mountains from Eriador without ever having settled in Arthedain.
As far as birthday gifts are concerned, Tolkien answered the question in one of his letters. Gollum's people did not observe the same birthday customs as the Hobbits of the Shire did. So, there was no mistake in the text. |
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#9 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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#10 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 08-04-2004 at 02:01 PM. |
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#11 |
mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New York's beautiful North Coast -- we're all mad here!!!
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Another excellent, thought-provoking thread, Val!!! I was going to say (before I read all the replies) that Gollum/Smeagol's people were related to hobbits (with some distance between them) or were an earlier version of the Shire hobbits...certainly as such (and because of the time element) there would be cultural and customary differences.
But it's very interesting to see the discussions...and now I'm not so sure about it anymore!! ![]() ![]()
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#12 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#13 | |
mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New York's beautiful North Coast -- we're all mad here!!!
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It's all right, Val. I'll blame you for it anyway. I always do!!! (Sorry, elvishfairy -- I'll blame the new job...no, let's blame Val!!! ![]()
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![]() "Never try to out-stubborn a cat!" -- R. Heinlein ~~~~~~~~~ "But I don't want to be among mad people, " Alice remarked. "Oh, but you can't help that," said the Cat; "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." ~~ Lewis Carroll ~~~~~~~~~~~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana... |
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#14 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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#15 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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Another 'MISTAKE' that I've found is at Helms Deep Gimli says he has had nothing but wood to chop since Moria whereas when Legolas and Gimli found Aragorn and Boromir on Parth Galen Legolas said that they had hunted and killed many orcs but were more needed here. Anyway Tolkien was writing this for over 16 yrs. Can't he make a few mistakes?
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#16 |
The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
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That is odd. I wonder why Gimli said that, I mean it doenst furtherr the plot in any way so it just seems to be a useless mistake. oh well!
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A Bit More Grown Up This Time... |
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#17 | |
Elven Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
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And he didn't really spend 16 years on the story. He started it in December 1937 and finished the primary narrative in 1948, so he only spent about 11 years working on it. The appendices required another 1-2 years' worth of work. |
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#18 | |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Quote:
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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#19 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Or maybe it's Gimli's sense of humor showing through... with a bit of a slam on how challenging it was to fight those particular orcs.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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#20 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
Join Date: Dec 2002
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![]() Yeah, I've always put that down to Dwarvish hyperbole.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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