A Trade of Abominations.

[Grey_Wolf]

Is it now the time for the Muslims to behave even more abominably?

I mean some Christians haven't exactly been paragons of decent
behaviour during the last two thousand years, with their witch hunts, 30 years wars and Crusades.

[Lizra]

I'm not following you Grey Wolf (I usually don't ) I (personally) think now is the time for ALL religions to dump their crazy pasts and redefine themselves "modernly". That's my main beef with religion, the stuff from 100's of years ago doesn't work anymore! If religions are "made up" (my term sorry! heh! ) to help people live their lives well, and righteously...then they need to be modernized to fit the new world. So, anyway what do you mean GW....

[Radagast]

No, it would be a crucial flaw to do that! Fundamentally, nothing has changed. There's still war, disease, famine and hardship in the world and the fundamental good messages of what you call '100s of years ago' is still true today.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally posted by Lizra
I'm not following you Grey Wolf (I usually don't ) I (personally) think now is the time for ALL religions to dump their crazy pasts and redefine themselves "modernly". That's my main beef with religion, the stuff from 100's of years ago doesn't work anymore! If religions are "made up" (my term sorry! heh! ) to help people live their lives well, and righteously...then they need to be modernized to fit the new world. So, anyway what do you mean GW....

Sorry, Lizra, if my questions and reasoning sometimes gives you a headache.

I didn't mean that the Muslims SHOULD do what they are doing.

What I meant was, that since the Christians have been behaving in the ways I described, I was wondering if the carbombings and terrorism is the Muslims way of dishing out their crap on the world.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
Sorry, Lizra, if my questions and reasoning sometimes gives you a headache.

I didn't mean that the Muslims SHOULD do what they are doing.

What I meant was, that since the Christians have been behaving in the ways I described, I was wondering if the carbombings and terrorism is the Muslims way of dishing out their crap on the world.

Oh! I really wasn't sure what you meant GW. Thank you! I think your "take" is confusing, (to me) since the witch hunts, 30 year wars and Crusades are all ancient history (IMO) and I'm SURE they were matched with equally horredous crimes against humanity by Muslims, back in the day.

And Radagast...I don't know about "fundamentally" (wacky word that is pretty subjective) but I think almost EVERYTHING has changed. We have answers to many of the questions (because of modern science) that cause antiquated religions to come about. The black books with "the teachings" are centuries and centuries old, and have small value (IMO) in this modern world of global communications, mastery and ruination of the environment, extreme over population. Religions are being used as politics and this is bad. Sure, kernals of moralistic truths can be found, but there is too much confusing and/or useless info in the tradtional religions to serve man in these modern times. So, I say we need to keep the good stuff (people get together in groups and have lovely ceremonies centered around try to help one another) and chuck the rest.

[Radagast]

Our superiority over a few centuries ago is purely superficial. It is now almost dogma to quote as you do phrases like 'this modern world of global communications' but, in essence, our differences are only in perspective. We stand here now upon the beginning of the third millenium with remarkable technological feats that frequently astound us with our own ingenuity and cunning. But have we changed? No, every man is a quotation from his ancestors and we have, perhaps, impressed ourselves with our own cleverness by solving some of the mysteries of nature but the purpose of this millenia old religion is not to explain how (which has, as you say, been proved inaccurate) but to say why.

Religion has inspired men to some of the greatest deeds and feats humanity has ever known, and it has also brought men to deeds worthy of the blackest Abyss of hell. Do you think 'lovely ceremonies centered around try to help one another' would work in the same way?

One of the things I will always remember of my grandfather was his advice to me: 'Fear God, tell the truth and don't dawdle.' I have always tried not to dissappoint him.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Radagast
Our superiority over a few centuries ago is purely superficial. It is now almost dogma to quote as you do phrases like 'this modern world of global communications' but, in essence, our differences are only in perspective. We stand here now upon the beginning of the third millenium with remarkable technological feats that frequently astound us with our own ingenuity and cunning. But have we changed? No, every man is a quotation from his ancestors and we have, perhaps, impressed ourselves with our own cleverness by solving some of the mysteries of nature but the purpose of this millenia old religion is not to explain how (which has, as you say, been proved inaccurate) but to say why.

Religion has inspired men to some of the greatest deeds and feats humanity has ever known, and it has also brought men to deeds worthy of the blackest Abyss of hell. Do you think 'lovely ceremonies centered around try to help one another' would work in the same way?

One of the things I will always remember of my grandfather was his advice to me: 'Fear God, tell the truth and don't dawdle.' I have always tried not to dissappoint him.

"Fear God".... I don't believe in god, so, nothing to fear. "Tell the truth"....excellent advice.
Anyway, my ancestors (whoever they were) lived in a very different world, and were preoccupied with very different issues (IMO) ....growing food, understanding health issues that they had no clue about, keeping warm etc. God worship seems to have centered around a supernatural being who made "miracles" happen, and as far as I'm concerned, books written 2000 years ago are not what I'm interested in. Explaining and "knowing why" seem pretty similar to me. Yes, Lovely ceremonies and trying to help each ohter will do just fine for me. I don't think mankind needs unproveable/unbelievable religions to do wonderful or horrible deeds. Inspiration should be found elsewhere.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
with their ...... Crusades.

Recall that the land of the crusades, as well as the preponderating majority of of muslim lands was thake by war from pre-exsiting cultures and civilization, they got very little by missionary work. Islam has no valid complaint about the crusades, as the law and standards of that time were the same as when they took the area a few centruies before.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Recall that the land of the crusades, as well as the preponderating majority of of muslim lands was thake by war from pre-exsiting cultures and civilization, they got very little by missionary work. Islam has no valid complaint about the crusades, as the law and standards of that time were the same as when they took the area a few centruies before.

I was comparing religious fanaticism (which the witchhunts, the 30 years war and crusades were), and that is what these Muslim carbombings and terrorist acts are too. One could, of course, mention the prize idiocy in Irland which is pretty much the same thing.

[Draken]

Originally posted by Radagast
Our superiority over a few centuries ago is purely superficial. It is now almost dogma to quote as you do phrases like 'this modern world of global communications' but, in essence, our differences are only in perspective. We stand here now upon the beginning of the third millenium with remarkable technological feats that frequently astound us with our own ingenuity and cunning. But have we changed? No, every man is a quotation from his ancestors and we have, perhaps, impressed ourselves with our own cleverness by solving some of the mysteries of nature but the purpose of this millenia old religion is not to explain how (which has, as you say, been proved inaccurate) but to say why.

It's not the search for a "why" that is the problem though. Along with every "why" there's a whole set of "how to" lists with helpful paradigms along the lines of "I am the only true God and all others are false", "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", etc etc. That's what causes the problems.

And many religious pratices ARE rooted in what was a concern at the time of their formalisation but is no longer relevant - avoiding certain meats in the Middle East in the days before refridgeration, for a start.

The sets of beliefs that gained widespread credence in the cradles of civilisation at the time when their was enough literacy to record them and spread their ideas are the ones that now count as recognised religions. Seems more like a case of being in the right place at the right time rather than speaking of any unalterable truth about the human condition.

[Lizra]

Good points! I certainly have truoble with "unalterable truths". I believe we should always be able to change (if neccessary ) . The world has come into it's glorious state because of change/evolving. While physical evolution occurs too slowly for us to really see, I would hope that our cultural evolution might be noticable. Change is neccessary!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Grey_Wolf
What I meant was, that since the Christians have been behaving in the ways I described, I was wondering if the carbombings and terrorism is the Muslims way of dishing out their crap on the world.

A lot of it is just looking for someone else to blame. As for what is going on in Iraq or with Al Qaeda right now - that really doesn't have anything to do with us having troops in Saudi Arabia, the Crusades, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Al Qaeda just uses them as excuses. Al Qaeda is using car bombings and terrorism because he wants to create a world in the model of the Taliban society of Afganistan. The countries around Israel, as well as the palestinians attempted to destroy Israel. They failed and lost land. Now they bitch and moan about it. Maybe if they didn't attempt to destroy Israel in the beginning, they wouldn't be having the problems they have today. They caused a lot of their own problems, but they're rather blame it on the hated jews and the hated west.

As for the Crusades - that was fought because MUSLIMS had been attacking and moving into Europe. Thje Crusades was a response to their attempt to take over Europe. It then moved into freeing the holy lands.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As for the Crusades - that was fought because MUSLIMS had been attacking and moving into Europe. Thje Crusades was a response to their attempt to take over Europe. It then moved into freeing the holy lands.

Yes. The Muslims (Moors?) had gotten as far as Constantinople, the "Gateway to the West," also taking over the holy city (Jerusalem) and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (an important Christian site). Pope Urban II ordered the crusades to protect Europe and free the Holy Land once again. Many people went on the crusades for/because of:
1. Boredom (it was an adventure)
2. Land in the East (primogeniture left a lot of younger sons with nothing for themselves)
3. Release from prison/debts
4. Promises of going straight to heaven when they die
5. Economic aspects of the East

It wasn't merely a "Let's go kill those heathens" kind of thing.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Yes. The Muslims (Moors?) had gotten as far as Constantinople, the "Gateway to the West," also taking over the holy city (Jerusalem) and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (an important Christian site). Pope Urban II ordered the crusades to protect Europe and free the Holy Land once again. Many people went on the crusades for/because of:
1. Boredom (it was an adventure)
2. Land in the East (primogeniture left a lot of younger sons with nothing for themselves)
3. Release from prison/debts
4. Promises of going straight to heaven when they die
5. Economic aspects of the East

It wasn't merely a "Let's go kill those heathens" kind of thing.

They hadn't gotten ONLY into Constantinople. They had gotten halfway through Spain, they were making their way through southern Europe. They posed a threat to England and France.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They hadn't gotten ONLY into Constantinople. They had gotten halfway through Spain, they were making their way through southern Europe. They posed a threat to England and France.

Ah yes. And Charles Martel (Mayor of the Palace) defeated the Moors (Muslims) at the Battle of Tours (in France). But that was a little earlier in history, wasn't it? Anyway, the Moors were trying to get into Europe.

[Draken]

Hmm yes the Moors invaded Spain early in the 8th Century I think and it wan't too long before the surviving Christian kingdoms in the north started to gradually push them back. And Contantinople fell in the mid 15th century. You can't really tie those events directly with the Crusades which started in the late 11th century, a long time after the Muslim invasion of Europe in the west and a long time before the invasion in the east.

[Mercutio]

from Encyclopaedia Britannica

Battle of Tours

also called Battle of Poitiers (October 732), victory won by Charles Martel, the de facto ruler of the Frankish kingdoms, over Muslim invaders from Spain. The battlefield cannot be exactly located, but it was fought somewhere between Tours and Poitiers, in what is now west-central France. ..

There were no further Muslim invasions of Frankish territory, and Charles's victory has often been regarded as decisive for world history, since it preserved western Europe from Muslim conquest and Islamization.

It did play a major part in halting Muslim expansion, though it was 300 years before the Crusades.

What was my point? lol

[Lizra]

That the Crusades were to halt Muslim expansion?

[jerseydevil]

Well the whole point is that the Crusades was not an [edit]unwarranted[/edit] act against muslims that it is often portrayed as. Muslims, in addition to trying to take over Europe, had shut off the holy lands to chrisitian pilgrims. This caused an outrage in in Christian Europe and is why the fight extended to Jerusalem.

[Mercutio]

Thanks Lizra and JD for straightening out my cluttered mind!