Elf "intel" failure?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Given Elvish long lives, and therefore institutional memory, why was there so little apparent effort (especially by Rivendell and Lorien and particularly after the One Ring was lost but not destroyed) to keep more informed on developments in various parts of Middle-earth? Late in the Third age Aragorn was notable as "the greatest traveler of the age". Really! More then the much longer lived sons of Elrond or Glorfindel, among many others!Since the elvish kingdoms were rooted in Middle-earth, and their fate tied to it, the very reluctance of elves to see change should have led them to keep far more informed on matters in general all throughout Middle-earth, including in the Far East and South, and in particular on ring lore- and not leaving that to the study of Saruman. Just common sense and care to preserve their world as little changed as they could manage, combined with their weakening power and numbers in the Third Age, should have led to what is viewed today as a comprehensive "intelligence gathering", preferably "on the ground" and in combination with paid spies, not for any particular case, just to keep better informed about events, people, politics, etc. in general. They seemed taken by surprise even with Sauron's return and his fortifying of Dol Guldur. Even with their estrangement from Gondor, they could have shared intelligence gathered with Gondor, to the benefit of both elves and men.

Another thought, could the heavy reliance on the elf rings in Rivendell and Lorien have an analogy to the U.S.'s CIA and military overreliance on hightech information in preference to having informants "in place" to get "intel"?

[mithrand1r]

Interesting thought.

This may be a case of the author not wishing to good down that path.


If I was to take your quote:

Late in the Third age Aragorn was notable as "the greatest traveler of the age".

This does not nessisarily imply that elves were not among the greatest travelers of the Third or any other age. (ie. among top ten travelers elves were 10-2 and aragorn was number 1 and/or in previous ages elves were the number 1 traveler)

[The Gaffer]

I agree that it's an interesting thought, and one I've wondered about since reading LOTR for the first time.

The first thing I think is that elves are not very numerous in ME at the time of LOTR. They had been departing ME since the beginning of the Second Age.

Second is that something changed for them after the War of Wrath: those that had seen Aman felt "lost" and knew that they could never live completely fulfilled until they returned.

Also, is there not something about when Aman was "removed from the circles of the world" (end of the Second Age?). Maybe that exacerbated their feeling of detachment and introspection.

Those that remained did so mainly out of loyalty to their kingdoms and an unwillingness to abandon ME to its fate.

When you look at the timeline, Sauron was absent after his overthrow by the Last Alliance for longer than the entire First Age, so perhaps it's not surprising that they didn't expect him to return.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
They seemed taken by surprise even with Sauron's return and his fortifying of Dol Guldur. Even with their estrangement from Gondor, they could have shared intelligence gathered with Gondor, to the benefit of both elves and men.

But Tolkien gives some evidence that Sauron WAS known at that time, and the Elves quite successfully used the power of his ambassadors for leverage to achieve their plans.Theirs intelligence was working just fine, but they did not share information with nobody.

Probably an unsophisticated Avari nad no idea that Sauron didn’t diminish completely, but Noldor, and certainly Galadriel with her 10 000 years experience, knew for sure that his absence might last long, but not forever, and when the dark “shadow falls on Greenwod” it was not a total surprise for them, because ”whence it came A FEW could tell” (Sil.)
I wonder, who would be this knowledgeable A FEW? And about this time( how providential!) the Istari was sent to Middle-earth “to contest the power of SAURON” . What to contest if you know that he is not around?

[Finrod Felagund]

Well actually, Elladan and Elrohir (Elrond's sons) often travelled and hunted orcs. Both with Aragorn and sepearately.

[hectorberlioz]

I doubt that the elves ever thought that Sauron was a goner since his first defeat with Isildur. I have a feeling that it was on their minds ever since...

[Artanis]

Interesting topic, Tuor.

There were Elves wandering in the third age also. Gildor Inglorion and his company is one example. I don't think they were unique. When the Fellowship meets Haldir in Lórien, he tells them that he is able to speak the Common Speech because he is one of the Elves who travels abroad now and then, to seek and give information. So, I don't think they were any less informed of what was going on than, say, the Gondorians.

I don't think the Elves were capable of doing more than they did during the third age. I think that at the time of the War of the Last Alliance it became clear to them that it was no longer their appointed task to do active resistance against Sauron. They knew, and had always known, that Men were meant to outdo them in Middle Earth, to replace them as the most powerful race. But they were still needed for guidance and their strongholds were places where it was possible to take refugee, and they were also centers of lore of the Elder Days. Remember that the heirs of Isildur were fostered in Imladris, generation after generation.

From UT - The Istari:

Elendil and Gil-Galad were partners; but this was "the Last Alliance" of Elves and Men. In Sauron's final overthrow, Elves were not effectively concerned at the point of action. Legolas probably achieved least of the Nine Walkers. Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Good observations by all above. It is interesting that the only comments I recall about explorations/travels beyond Northwest Middle-earth and the River Running were by Gandalf and Aragorn. remarkable for a human (even of recidivist Numenorean life-span and strength) especially given the technological level of development of the Third Age.

A genesis of the beginning observation on intelligence gathering was historical, the Byzantine Empire. While Tolkien compared Gondor to ancient Egypt I've seen it as more medieval northern Italian or especially Byzantine. And one reason the BE survived as long as it did, even after it's decline set in around the 11th Century was that it had usually had better intelligence about its enemies then its many enemies had about it.

[Forkbeard]

I have a slightly different take. One of the things that should be discussed in dealing with LoTR is the nature of Good vs. Evil. Without question Evil exists in this universe (with the exception of Morgoth, but the argument holds there too, in a more limited way) BECAUSE of the shortcomings of the good guys.

Applying that to the point, the Elves in general seemed more concerned with their own affairs than with Sauron. The only exceptions there are Elrond and Galadriel--and remember that it was Galadriel who called the White Council. But even there, they seemed very unconcerned to include Gondor or the Beornings or other free peoples in the Council or in watching Sauron, and on the same count there isn't any indication that Gandalf suggested including Gondor or the Rangers in such plans either. And according to Appendix A, the meeting of Gandalf and Thorin had more to do with Gandalf's concerns about the dragon being used by Sauron than it did with any concern with including the dwarves in a campaign to guard against the return of the Black Days.
Thus, I think you have a point and it ties into the theme of good vs. evil, and is certainly pointed out in the Council of Elrond.

On a realated note, Tolkien in the letter to the Collins chap when he was frustrated with Allen and Unwyn for publication delays also compared Gondor to Byzantium. Gondor in many ways seems to have had fairly good intelligence against Sauron, just not the strength to do anything about it, but they too didn't bother to seek out the Elves or dwarves or anyone else as allies. Pride. The seeds of their own demise. The palantir was certainly instrumental in this intelligence, and of course eventually became somewhat tainted.
Anyway, just a few thoughts.

Forkbeard

[Draken]

Nice thread!

My interpretation of the inactivity in the Third Age would be that the elves would have trusted the Istari, as emissaries from the West, not knowing that Saruman was betraying that trust by "talking down" the threat for his own purposes.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Draken has a point. Part of the reason for the Istari being limited in their permitted activities was so as not to overawe and dominate Middle-earth free peoples. That very tendency seems to have been at the root of some of the Elder restiveness in Valinor, and even as their powers were limited in Middle-earth, the Istari may have subconsciously effected the elves.

About elf restiveness in Valinor: From Unfinished Tales
(Galadriel) "was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwe save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of
all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage."

[Thorin II]

I tend to agree with Artanis. I think it was a combination of diminishing power and a tendency to leave the fate of Middle-Earth to mankind. A bad idea, perhaps, but it did seem the Elves no longer saw Sauron as their responsibility. Most of the Elves left in ME seemed to be lingering to enjoy their last days there, rather than seeking to protect ME.

[Anglorfin]

I agree with Artanis as well. I always took it to mean that the Elves preferred seclusion, as all their realms were quite hidden and largely inacessible by the time of the Third Age. What I think slowly started to happen to the Elves is that after suffering so much loss as a result of their long life, they started to fear death. So most tended to prefer the seclusion of their hidden realms and stopped traveling.