Hostages in Iraq

[Ruinel]

Aid workers don't usually have politics. Their goal is to deliver much needed food, medicine and supplies to those that need it. When this happens in a war torn country like Iraq, aid workers would usually get safe passage.

A group calling itself "Marytr Ahmed Yassin Brigades" now claims to have 30 hostages of various countries.

Some of the hostages are secuity guards for convoys from various countries, but some of the hostages that have been taken are aid workers. The insurgent group (elsewhere in Iraq) that took three Japanese aid workers, a Canadian and an Arab from Jerusalem. These insurgents vow to burn the Japanese aid workers alive if Japan does not withdraw their troups by tomorrow (Sunday).

A British citizen and 2 German security guards are also missing from thier county's embassy in Bagdad.

I don't think I can understand this. Can any of this be justified? What are these Iraqis thinking? Why would they prolong the stay of the coalition troops?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I don't think I can understand this. Can any of this be justified? What are these Iraqis thinking? Why would they prolong the stay of the coalition troops?

The goal is to scare the coalition members and make them run and stop supporting the US. This is the tactic of the terrorist - this is the goal of Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is partially calling the shots in Iraq with the kidnappings and killings. Several months ago a message was intercepted stating that we refused to leave - that attackgin our troops was making us leave. They then went to civilians, and Iraqis - but that started backfiring on them. They have now gone to starting civil unrest int he cities and taking hostages of various countries. japan luckily has the backbone not to give into the demands of these animals. And that's what they are. Anyone that would kidnap people who are there to help - and threaten to burn them to death is an animal. Anyone who would drag dead bodies through the street and other autrocious acts is an animal.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I don't think I can understand this. Can any of this be justified? What are these Iraqis thinking? Why would they prolong the stay of the coalition troops?

The rebels hope they can make the coalition withdraw their troops before power is handed over to the Iraqi people. If the rebels succeed, they can try and form Iraq after their own will. So it's imperative that the coalition members don't give in to their demands, even though hostages have been taken that the rebels threaten to murder. More people would die if the troops were withdrawn too soon.

[Ruinel]

What kind of mind-set does one need to be in to perform such a hideous and cruel act as to burn someone alive? I can't imagine a human doing such a thing to another human. I am saddened by the cruelty of Man towards Man.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
What kind of mind-set does one need to be in to perform such a hideous and cruel act as to burn someone alive? I can't imagine a human doing such a thing to another human. I am saddened by the cruelty of Man towards Man.

Members of Hamas are starting to plant bombs on unsuspecting teenagers (the one that had it in his backpack and was told it was car parts) and also trying to recruit teenagers - such as the one that had the bomb strapped to him. The terrorist don't care about human life, the don't care about the suffering. Even though we feel terrible about civilian deaths - they instead go running out and celebrate in the streets (9/11 is an example).

[Ruinel]

I'm disappointed, I thought more people would be disturbed by what's happening with the hostages in Iraq.

Not many people care to discuss this issue. That's pretty sad.

I, myself, am quite upset about the aid workers.

[Insidious Rex]

Its so complicated though. We cant define who is doing what. Its a hodge podge collection of various groups and outlaws. There seem to be common bandits and robbers who are trying to take advantage of the chaos to make a few bucks by kidnapping people then selling them to true rebel or terrorist groups while taking all their equipment and cash. These tend to be mostly illiterate shiite thugs who were under the heal of sadam for decades and now have sort of a road warrior mentality and do crazy sloppy cruel things for fun and money. Then you have the shiite followers of Muqtada al-Sadr who have been responsible for most of the fighting going on in the south of Iraq since the US put an arrest warent out for Sadr but feel they are defending themselves and have said they would not resort to kidnapping since they would just assume mayrter themselves in battle then make a political statement. Then you have the suni former bathist former Iraq army insurgents who probably have had the largest role in the small road side bombings and sniper attacks of the past year. Their goal is to disrupt things just enough to make the June 30 deadline for power switch a lot harder to stick to. The less legitimate the new government the better for them. So its quite possible they could be responsible for things like kidnappings. Next you have outside terrorist groups running stealth operations within Iraq stirring up trouble and trying to rile the populace by killing innocents and setting the sunis against the shiites and badgering the other coalition forces to make them run off in fear and split the coalition apart. This group is by far the smallest of all the groups but its by far the most dangerous especially when in collaberation with native iraqis who sympathise with their cause.

So all these kidnappings could be from different groups with different goals. Its doubtful its all coordinated. Its just the next logical trend among insurgants and terrorists who cant fight head to head with american forces. so they resort to the only other tactics they have. its dispicable that they have an 18 year old hostage who they are threatening to burn. You would think if they wanted even a shread of legitimacy they would let the kid go and not threaten the others with such a grusome death.

I heard an interesting story just yesterday on the radio about a couple of british journalists who were kidnapped outside of Bagdad by a band of road pirates (ali babas they call themselves. just a rag tag band of shiite thugs looking for treasure and some thrills). They shot out the journalists tires and yanked them out of their car shouting and celebrating and said they were in big trouble (they thought they were american soldiers). They brought them back to their hide out and the british guy said he was sure they were dead when suddenly a black car pulls up and this proffessional looking guys step out all dressed in black with AK-47s and despite the fact there were only 3 or 4 of them and there were more then a dozen of the thugs, the ali babas simply melted away IMMEDIATELY and the new group took the hostages into their car and drove them to their hide out. once they got there they were told that these were the muja hadin (however you spell that) so the journalists figured they were in worse shape but they managed to convince the leader that they were in fact just journalists NOT soldiers and the leader said if you can prove you are we will let you go. But you must tell our story. So the guy got a pad of paper and took 8 pages of notes as the guy talked. Turns out he was a former bathist who felt he was defending his homeland from imperliasts. he basically saw himself as a true patriot and that the americans were simply out to exterminate them because they wanted "the petrol" so this was his only alternative. he asked the journalists why the americans were doing this to them. he didnt understand why and he just realy wanted to know why they didnt just leave them alone. once the interview was done these bathists terrorists, true to their word, released the journalists. they even went back to the thugs hide out and managed to get most of their stuff that had been stolen! amazing. they EVEN went back to their car and changed their tires and escorted them out of town!! and told them not to come back again but to tell George Bush what had been told to them. So there is honor in this land. among the butchery. Thats what i mean by its so complicated. One can only hope that those horrible thugs who have threatened to do unspeakable things to their hostages can somehow be influenced by these more honorable killers (if i can use that phrase) and the hostages will be spaired. or rescued like these two were. its unlikely though.

[jerseydevil]

I'm upset about it - and I think it's barabaric. But not much can really be done. Maybe the UN will step in and tell the Iraqis that what they are doing is against the geneva convention, is an outrage against human rights and all that. Oh - wait - we're talking about the UN here. I'm sure they'll get a memo out though to them - "now please, leave the hostages alone". They may even do a study on it - or do a report. But take actual action - never - this is the UN.

[jerseydevil]

I agree with IR. it's very complicated and one of the main things is that they are trying to disrupt the June 30th deadline. That is why Bush is insisting that we are sticking to it. Many people of course are calling on us to postpone it - but that is playing right into the rebels hands.

Today we offered a cease fire. I know they reason we did this was shwo the Iraqi civilians we did not want to kill them - but the question needs to be raised - will many people think that we are calling for a cease fire out of weakness. it's a tough call. One one hand it can stop the violence - on the other hand it can encourage them.

[Ruinel]

Sorry, JD... after reading my statement, I think it could have been read that you don't care about what's going on. What I meant is that I thought there would be more discussion than just you and I.

Now I see that IR has added (quite a lot) his intelligent post, and that is much appreciated. And Jonathan also has posted.

My distress was that more people weren't posting. It made me think that they weren't concerned because it wasn't on their own soil. But I'm glad to see more people are taking the time to post here, now. Thanks IR, Jonathan and JD for your posts.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Its so complicated though....

Very true. I read all of the post and I feel a little smarter for it. Thanks

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
...Today we offered a cease fire. I know they reason we did this was shwo the Iraqi civilians we did not want to kill them - but the question needs to be raised - will many people think that we are calling for a cease fire out of weakness. it's a tough call. One one hand it can stop the violence - on the other hand it can encourage them.

I don't think asking for a cease fire and talks is a sign of weakness at all. In fact, I think that it shows wisdom over force. I think the coalition forces, if they wanted to, could wipe Iraq off the face of the Earth, and leave them in rubble. It takes strength and wisdom not to do such a thing, even after all the oposition to restoration that's been going on.

[Sister Golden Hair]

There is no doubt that the US must stick to the June 30th deadline. However, that deadline may change anyway, unless these insurgents are brought under control and a peaceful state restored. There is no way the US can hand over power if this unrest still exists by the time June 30th comes.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I don't think asking for a cease fire and talks is a sign of weakness at all. In fact, I think that it shows wisdom over force. I think the coalition forces, if they wanted to, could wipe Iraq off the face of the Earth, and leave them in rubble. It takes strength and wisdom not to do such a thing, even after all the oposition to restoration that's been going on.

yeah - that's from YOUR standpoint. make perfect sense - you have to look at it from their standpoint. What are they looking at it as. Are they looking at it as the "wise americans" or are they looking at it as the "weak americans we have scared into submission"

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I don't think asking for a cease fire and talks is a sign of weakness at all. In fact, I think that it shows wisdom over force. I think the coalition forces, if they wanted to, could wipe Iraq off the face of the Earth, and leave them in rubble. It takes strength and wisdom not to do such a thing, even after all the oposition to restoration that's been going on.

But remember this is a vastly different culture. They see things differently. When you have been governed and controlled by a thug and a brute for like 25 years the idea of backing away from something and not grinding your heal in is seen as weakness. and you lose face. we may have really stepped in it by going on the offensive like we did because we riled up a hornets nest of various groups who are fighting back for all sorts of different reasons. and that, of course, plays right into the hands of the real bad guys who just want to cause chaos and make things a lot harder for any "coalition imposed" governing body. Its a catch 22 now. If we continue attacking them we stir up more and more animosity among even those who were willing to accept our occupation. if we back off many will see it as a sign of weakness and it will embolden them to be more aggresive and kill more contracters or whatever. I think the only thing we can do is a very delicate dance of cordining off areas like falluja without trying to concur it outright. just keep it in check. and just let it stay like that till it becomes old news. same with Sadr's militia. That could lead to a REAL backlash (its already uniting shiites from all over the country who see it as unjust. even the ones that hate Sadr). And the last thing we need now is for those iraquis with whom we had a tepid but peaceful relationship to join with our enamies and take up arms against us. things will crumble quickly if we do that. we are in a very dangerous position right now. Its crucual we make no move without some serious and careful deliberation. Worst case scenario is all the other coalition members withdraw due to intimidation; shiites across the country unite and revolt everywhere against us; the sunis continue their open rebellion against us strenghtened by our new focus on the larger shiite militia problem; the influence and damage from outside terrorists groups grows 100 fold due to higher sympathy among the iraqi population and desperation and the simple chaos of the current environment. And chaos and hatred (and well armed thugs) are a short step from civil war which would be what would happen once the insurgants shift their focus from the current situation with the coalition to each other. a bleak scenario. lets hope we can avoid it...

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i have just noticed on the aol news, more about the japanese hostages.

how any human being can conceive such an idea as the iraqi rebels are is beyond me, i can not understand how any person can do such to another

[Grey_Wolf]

The Iraquis (and other lunatic for that matter) who blow up buildings, kill soldiers (and ordinary people) and kidnap aidworkers are grade A assholes. They are incapable of sentiment. They will NEVER change however much the UN, the United states or any other country try to make them. They don't care about other people. To them we are potential targets the lot of us, and they think that they will go to heaven when they kill us.

[GrayMouser]

While some of the kidnappings now may be local thugs or 'copycats', I would guess that the originals were al-Qaeda related- "the name "Martyr Yahmed Hassin Brigades" shows that they are aiming at a wider Muslim audience- he was the Hamas leader behind the suicide bombings against Israel, whom the Israelis killed last month.

I noticed the Sadrists said that they weren't the ones doing this, but they never actually condemned it.

[BeardofPants]

Ruinel, you know well why no one wants to post. It starts with J and ends with D.

Anyway....

I was most chilled to read about the japanese hostages. The main guy that is being held is only eighteen. And dammit all, Japan shouldn't even BE in Iraq! Obviously, I'm really torn about this - part of me says, 'pull 'em out you ****ers', and part of me thinks, 'don't kowtow to the terrorists'. *sigh* I think I'm more in favour of pulling Japan out though.

[azalea]

I was horrified about all of this. What a situation. I just hope that the new Iraqi leaders are good, smart men (and women) and effective leaders. I think control should still be handed over, but that our military should still be there, because as far as I know, there isn't really a new Iraqi military yet, at least not one that would be effective against all that is happening. (I support their leaving ASAP, but once we started this, we have an obligation not to leave the country in chaos).
The new government must take a tough stance on any and all violence. They must establish themselves as the true democratic leadership. Most importantly, the Iraqi people must value their new democracy so much that they would be willing to die to preserve it. They can't rely on foreign might to doing the dying for them. It can't be about which tribe, ethnicity, or sect has the power, it has to be a shared goal of a safe, free, democratic country. ALL citizens need to come to this understanding.

(re: no one posting -- plus, the topic was just posted this morning -- most people hadn't seen it yet)