The power of a curse

[Artanis]

In the Sil project we have been talking about the curse of Morgoth upon Húrin and his kin, and this has made me think about curses in general. What is the power behind a curse?

This is the curse of Morgoth:

Therefore Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew that he had the friendship of the King of Gondolin; but Húrin defied him, and mocked him. Then Morgoth cursed Húrin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow; and taking Húrin from prison he set him in a chair of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth, and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again; and he said: 'Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end.'

In the case of Morgoth and Húrin it seemed that Morgoth was powerful and cunning enough to make his curse come true by careful planning and manipulation of events. But then we have the curse of Isildur, who cursed the Men of the Mountains when they refused to go to war with him against Sauron, though they had swore allegiance to him.

‘Then Isildur said to their king: “Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end.”

As we know, the spirits of these men were doomed to remain until Aragorn summoned them to the battle of Pelargir. What power had Isildur to fulfil this curse, to put this doom upon those men?

There's another example in UT, where the Dwarf Mîm lays a curse upon the Man who killed his son:

But this I will add: he that loosed the shaft shall break his bow and his arrows and lay them at my son's feet; and he shall never take arrow nor bear bow again. If he does, he shall die by it. That curse I lay on him."

This curse was also fulfilled at last. A coincidence? Or did Mîm have some inherent power to make it come true?

Thoughts, anyone?

[The Gaffer]

Nice topic.

In ME, it seems that spoken words have greater power than we're used to. Here are some examples from LOTR:
- Gandalf's "word of Command" to stop the balrog from opening the door in Moria
- Frodo's "curse" on Gollum ("If you touch it again you shall be cast into the fire yourself")
- the Oathbreakers from the Paths of the Dead.

It seems that words are closely tied to the essence of the world and can directly make things happen (gandalf).

They can also indirectly, or inadvertently, make things happen (Oathbreakers)

And it can work the other way: spoken words prophesying events such that we're not sure whether the words cause the events or a vision of the events prompted the words (Frodo)

I think all of this is a monster metaphor for the way we use language to express our thoughts about the world, and the reciprocal way in which language frames what we think.

PS - forgot about Bobmadil's songs!

[Valandil]

This IS an interesting topic. I don't think just anyone's words could be effective as a curse (and we could probably talk about the opposite - a blessing - in the same way). In general, I think there needs to be either a person or an object of 'power' for these to be effective. Gandalf was a powerful being himself. In the case of Isildur, there seems to have been something 'special' about the Stone of Erech, which he brought from Numenor. Did Isildur also have a measure of 'power' in a spiritual sense? As the leader of the Faithful Numenoreans in Gondor? Would the Valar have added power to his words? In the case of Frodo, Gollum actually swore his oath on The One Ring. It was the Ring which doomed Gollum when he broke his oath.

I can't think of any case where a 'regular person' was able to effectively bless or curse... though that may be possible as well. Also - taken as 'mythology' stories, I think we see this in other mythologies - hence the carry-over?

Our own words have power to help or to harm others... maybe this point just gets carried further in these stories. There are a few biblical references about 'blessing' and 'cursing'... I don't know that much of that has made it into official doctrine for many churches... but it's interesting food for thought.

Does anyone remember any statements by JRRT on the matter?

[Beor]

I thought the ring told him not to touch him again, or he would be cast into the fire, but I may have just read it wrong.

I like the curse things too, and I also believe, as I said in the Sil forum, and I believe in another thread called Free Will and Turin Turambar (I think), that I dont think that the curse of Morgoth upon Hurins kin had much to do with the actual events, other than what Morgoth did directly to Turin to move him like a pawn.

The curse with Frodo or the ring or whatever, on Gollum I dont think was a curse so much as foreshadowing or prophecy.

The one you mention, though, about the dead guys that were cursed by Isildur, now that is a curse! Man, they really screwed up! Where did he get the power? I think that just like with the eagles, sometimes the Valar will help out the people of Middle-earth, and oaths seem to be a big thing in the whole mythos (hope thats the right word). The oath thing was in effect all throughout the first age.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

the oath theme is powerful because, taditionally and historically, once you have sworn an oath you are bound by it in that you should honour your own words on pain of death, which is where the curse theme comes in, if by breaking an oth, you are then subject to some curse or other

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
This IS an interesting topic. I don't think just anyone's words could be effective as a curse (and we could probably talk about the opposite - a blessing - in the same way). In general, I think there needs to be either a person or an object of 'power' for these to be effective.

I agree that words alone are not enough, and that there must be some kind of power behind. But what kind of power? Could it be some kind of 'moral power'?

In the case of Isildur I was thinking that he did not have that kind of power in himself, nor was it in the Stone. It was the unfaithfulness of the Men of the Mountain which gave Isildur the right to condemn them, a right I think he, and the Oathbreakers too, recognised as a 'law'. As Beor and LCoU said, breaking an Oath is indeed a very serious matter, which do not go unpunished.

This line of thought could fit well in the case of Mîm's curse too, where he cursed the man who unjustly killed his son. He had the moral right on his side.

Morgoth of course had not any moral advantage over Húrin, but he didn't need it, he was the most powerful of the Ainur.

There is also the curse that was uttered by Mandos (or one of his servants) on the flight of the Noldor. Though this may be seen as partly a foretelling in addition to a curse. But I think it was also a moral reaction to the kinslaying.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i have also thought about the passage in LOTR, where gandalf says that a blessing shall be placed on barliman butterbur's beer

is this just harmless chitter chatter aswell
i know as a maia, gandalf had power, but did those powers extend to making beer taste nice

and how about when galadriel tells gimli that he will be blessed with power over gold, and gold shall have no power ovr him

[Beor]

Didnt Butterbur's beer get really good after the war, though? Now thats a good curse!

I like the moral right thing you put out there too, Artanis, you make a good point.

[Valandil]

Artanis, I strongly agree with you about most of these curses being triggered by a broken oath... or otherwise from a position of moral advantage (except in the case of Morgoth's curse on the family of Hurin... but he IS Morgoth, after all! ). However, I wonder if this is enough in itself... or if there IS any more required (like a 'special' stone or a magic ring?). Perhaps you're correct and the moral rightness of the aggrieved party who lays the curse triggers the actions of the Valar (or maybe 'natural moral consequences??).

I wonder what JRRT may have drawn from for these. Drawing a blank myself right now, but what are some other 'mythological' examples of the 'oath-curse' relationship?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Perhaps there also has to be some unforced and unwilled action which effects the person giving the curse to enable the curse with power. In Morgoth's case, didn't Hurin give him the (figurative) finger by taunting him and refusing to be daunted by Morgoth? That is, the curse may have to be spontaneous and not preplanned, otherwise Morgoth could have cheerily cursed elves in Beleriand every fortnight or so and bundled them out of Middle-earth in no time.

Also, a suggestion about The Paths of the Dead guys.
Isildur was a high Numenorean King, and of the Faithful, as such a descendant of Elros and earlier of Melian (granted a rather teensy dna percentage). Perhaps those factors could be imagined as adding efficacy to a curse, to a much lesser extent then it's been suggested above that Morgoth had as the greatest of the Valar?

[Valandil]

Were the words of Mandos more like a 'curse' or more like 'prophecy'? Is what he said referred to in both ways?

[Artanis]

It is called both a curse and a prophecy (Quenta), and also the Doom of the Noldor (Annals of Valinor).

From the Quenta:

Some say it was the herald of the Gods, others that it was Mandos himself. There he spake in a loud voice, solemn and terrible, the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, warning them to return and ask for pardon, or in the end return only at last after sorrow and unspeakable misery. Much he foretold in dark words, which only the wisest of them understood, concerning things that after befell. But all heard the curse he uttered upon those that would not stay or seek the doom and pardon of the Valar, for the spilling of the blood of their kindred at Alqualonde and fighting the first battle between the children of earth unrighteously. For this the Noldor should taste death more often and more bitterly than their kindred, by weapon and by torment and by grief; and evil fortune should pursue the house of Feanor, and their oath should turn against them, and all who now followed them should share their lot. And evil should come most upon them through treachery of kin to kin, so that in all their wars and councils they should suffer from treason and the fear of treason among themselves.

Here it may seem that the first part is a foretelling of the suffering that were to come, and the second part is a curse coming as a reaction to the kinslaying.

I think JRRT also referred to it as a curse in one of his letters, but right now I'm unable to find it.

Edit: "There he spake ... " What a language!

[Earniel]

In a world that practically came into being with one single word (Eä!) I suppose words have a special power.

I like the theories about the significance of oaths and the consequenses of breaking them.

But to me it also seemed that the moment was important too. This is probably just me but I've a feeling that each time such a curse is placed on someone it's at a certain turningpoint in history; a crossroad so to say with many different futures in the balance where the whole world can be sent tumbling down another path in history. And that the 'magic' of the moment heigthened the effect of the curse.

That probably didn't make much sense, did it?

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Eärniel
In a world that practically came into being with one single word (Eä!) I suppose words have a special power.

I like the theories about the significance of oaths and the consequenses of breaking them.

But to me it also seemed that the moment was important too. This is probably just me but I've a feeling that each time such a curse is placed on someone it's at a certain turningpoint in history; a crossroad so to say with many different futures in the balance where the whole world can be sent tumbling down another path in history. And that the 'magic' of the moment heigthened the effect of the curse.

That probably didn't make much sense, did it?

No, actually that makes a lot of sense. And I see your point as related to (Arty's) theory about the moral authotity of the curser.

I think that not everybody can be cursed. When we read the story of a cursed one we always debate about doom and free will, and we might never stop debating this. Perhaps both things are the same.

I think that not everybody "has got" the same level of free will. Free will requires integrity of life and stregth of will. It is something that every single person must achieve in their life. The best persons (perhaps the heroes) are those who have their free will intact even in the hardest momments.

But with their actions, people can be "loosing" their free will, enslaving themselves...

If somebody, with moral aucthority, curses in the right momment, and with the right words, somebody who has "spent" his free will, he could perhaps "fasten" his doom definitely.

See, Feanor and sons have stuck their will in recovering the silmarilli. After the kinslaying and seeing that the won't repent of their acts, Eonwe uses his moral aucthority to turn their fixation against themselves.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Fat middle
No, actually that makes a lot of sense. And I see your point as related to (Arty's) theory about the moral authotity of the curser.

I think that not everybody can be cursed. When we read the story of a cursed one we always debate about doom and free will, and we might never stop debating this. Perhaps both things are the same.

I think that not everybody "has got" the same level of free will. Free will requires integrity of life and stregth of will. It is something that every single person must achieve in their life. The best persons (perhaps the heroes) are those who have their free will intact even in the hardest momments.

But with their actions, people can be "loosing" their free will, enslaving themselves...

If somebody, with moral aucthority, curses in the right momment, and with the right words, somebody who has "spent" his free will, he could perhaps "fasten" his doom definitely.

See, Feanor and sons have stuck their will in recovering the silmarilli. After the kinslaying and seeing that the won't repent of their acts, Eonwe uses his moral aucthority to turn their fixation against themselves.

And as a follow-up to what you say: Interesting that we most commonly think of the oath-curse tie-in when someone BREAKS their oath... yet the sons of Feanor arguably brought a curse on themselves by KEEPING an Oath... an ill-advised one. In fact, that oath may have brought doom, whether kept or broken. Keeping it, they committed immoral acts. Breaking an oath was an immoral act in itself. They 'doomed' themselves, in a sense, by taking an oath that was 'wrong' to take.

Concur?

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Valandil
And as a follow-up to what you say: Interesting that we most commonly think of the oath-curse tie-in when someone BREAKS their oath... yet the sons of Feanor arguably brought a curse on themselves by KEEPING an Oath... an ill-advised one. In fact, that oath may have brought doom, whether kept or broken. Keeping it, they committed immoral acts. Breaking an oath was an immoral act in itself. They 'doomed' themselves, in a sense, by taking an oath that was 'wrong' to take.

Concur?

That sounds to the story of Jephte, that swore to sacrifice to God the first person he saw in his house order to get God's help to destroy his enemies.

When you take an oath you also take an "oath-guarantor" or witness (like Gollum swearing on the Ring). The only way to escape of the doom of an injust oath I think it would be by a leave given by the guarantor. Obviously if the guarantor is God he'll be more than willing to give you leave...

Fanor and sons took Manwe and Varda as witnesses of their oath. So, the only way to escape from their "auto-curse" was to "ask" them leave to break the oath, that is to beg their pardon, as Mandos said in his prophecy.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Fat middle
That sounds to the story of Jephte, that swore to sacrifice to God the first person he saw in in hause order to get God's help to destroy his enemies.

When you take an oath you also take an "oath-guarantor" or witness (like Gollum swearing on the Ring). The only way to escape of the doom of an injust oath I think it would be by a leave given by the guarantor. Obviously if the guarantor is God he'll be more than willing to give you leave...

Fanor and sons took Manwe and Varda as witnesses of their oath. So, the only way to escape from their "auto-curse" was to "ask" them leave to break the oath, that is to beg their pardon, as Mandos said in his prophecy.

Yes... a very sad story. We spell it 'Jephthah' in English I think (or 'Jepthah... I really SHOULD check - I'll do that later and edit if necessary). And yes, I agree too that he should have petitioned God to release him from keeping his oath!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by fat middle!
When you take an oath you also take an "oath-guarantor" or witness (like Gollum swearing on the Ring). The only way to escape of the doom of an injust oath I think it would be by a leave given by the guarantor. Obviously if the guarantor is God he'll be more than willing to give you leave...

Fanor and sons took Manwe and Varda as witnesses of their oath. So, the only way to escape from their "auto-curse" was to "ask" them leave to break the oath, that is to beg their pardon, as Mandos said in his prophecy.
______________________________
Absatively! I think you've got it, which is why I've never been too satisfied with the conclusion of the final Maglor/Maedhros argument, when to continue their vow was abviously not only pointless but could only cause more evil results.
""And Maedhros answered: 'But how shall our voices reach to Iluvatar beyond the circles of the World?.....Who shall release us?' "

Perhaps they were suffering from, post traumatic stress disorder, shell shock, whatever. (George Patton would have slapped them silly). (can't get other Smilies to work).

[Rían]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
[B]That is, the curse may have to be spontaneous and not preplanned, otherwise Morgoth could have cheerily cursed elves in Beleriand every fortnight or so and bundled them out of Middle-earth in no time.

This just cracked me up, Tuor! *pictures Morgoth checking his Daily Planner : "hmm, 2:30 - time to curse another 100 elves!*

Also, a suggestion about The Paths of the Dead guys.
Isildur was a high Numenorean King, and of the Faithful, as such a descendant of Elros and earlier of Melian (granted a rather teensy dna percentage).

This reminded me of Aragorn's curse/prophecy at the Golden Hall about his sword : "Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir." Aragorn was in that line, too.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
In a world that practically came into being with one single word (Eä!) I suppose words have a special power.

Great point!

But to me it also seemed that the moment was important too. This is probably just me but I've a feeling that each time such a curse is placed on someone it's at a certain turningpoint in history; a crossroad so to say with many different futures in the balance where the whole world can be sent tumbling down another path in history. And that the 'magic' of the moment heigthened the effect of the curse.

That probably didn't make much sense, did it?

Yes, it made sense - I kind of feel that way, too - like a window of opportunity was opening, and would shut again ...