Sexual Harassment?

[BeardofPants]

It's the million dollar question... well, not quite, but it's extremely relevant in this day and age, where the line between the sexes is just that much more blurred in the work force. Women are now 'allowed' to work in environments that were previously the sole domain of men. Recently in New Zealand, a study was undertaken of women working within the police force. It was found that a majority felt that they were condescended upon because of their gender. Many reported incidents of sexual harassment that ranged from touching, jokes of an undesirable nature, to out-and-out sexual assault, in the Police Force.

Sexual harassment is defined by Merriam-Webster as:

• Main Entry: sexual harassment
  Function: noun
  : uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct directed at an employee because of his or her sex

Wikipedia:

• Sexual harassment
  
  Sexual harassment is harassment of a sexual nature, typically in the workplace or other setting where raising objections or refusing may have negative consequences.
  
  In American employment law, it is any unwelcome sexual advance or conduct on the job, having the effect of making the workplace intimidating, hostile or offensive.
  
  The definition of the phrase sexual harassment can be broad and controversial, depending on each individual's opinion of what sexual harassment is. While typical sexual harassment behaviour usually includes unwanted touching of a co-worker's private parts, lewd comments, talk about gender superiority, sexual jokes, etc., some companies have reported that they have had to fire employees (after a co-worker had complained of sexual harassment) for such actions as telling the complaining co-worker how good he or she looks for that co-worker's date with another person, or for simply handling what seemed, to the fired employee, to be just a harmless compliment.
  
• quid pro quo
• Hostile Work Environment
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment
  

According to the movie Disclosure, sexual harassment is about POWER. However, personal experience has lead me to believe that it is not as clear-cut as that; sexual harassment can be about many things. A harmless flirtation could be deemed as sexual harassment. All it takes is an action deemed as unsuitable by one party for it be of a harassment nature (as noted by the definitions above).

I have personally experienced harassment from one extreme to another: from touching, to crude jokes, to minor assault. ALL of these experiences made me feel uncomfortable, ill-at-ease, vulnerable. However, not all were intentional. Obviously the touching/assault were WAY out of line, and I let both guys know that they stepped outside the bounds of decency, and that if they were to proceed any further, I would take a sharp pencil and jab it up their respective left nostrils! In the case of jokes though, I am currently experiencing an unwitting form of harassment. The guy I work with is from Indonesia. I don't know if it is a cultural thing, or if he genuinely doesn't have a clue, but some of his jokes are off-colour, and they make me feel distinctly uncomfortable. Problem is: I like the guy... I don't want to make him feel bad or anything, but some of the stuff he says does make me feel put-upon, and vulnerable.

An example, at work they are thinking about changing our uniforms (I work part-time in a supermarket). I joked that this guy would look great in a skirt, and he joked back that I would look better in a bikini. That was okay - but then he started going on about how sexy I would look in a bikini, and doing all that hubba-hubba crap, which made me feel like a slab of meat or something. On top of this, the second-in-charge is encouraging him!! She keeps joking about how he should take me out, and blah-blah-blah, and how he wants yadda-yadda. As a result, I feel like I can not go to her to tell her that I'm feeling uncomfortable with the jokes. I've tried ignoring them, I've tried gently suggesting that I'm not comfortable with them (saying that I could report him for sexual harassment), but they haven't stopped. I don't feel like I can go directly to the manager either as he is a moron (eg, he joked about how he wanted to rape one of the food reps).

So, does anyone have any experiences they want to share? Advice? I really don't know what to do.

[Rían]

This is a tough subject - most people have common sense, but then there's those idiots who slap a lawsuit on anyone that smiles at them

I had an issue at work once that was rather intense and scary and went on for a few months, but I finally told a friend about it, and she said that it was harassment and to go to my boss. Luckily, I had a good boss, and it stopped instantly. However, your manager sounds like a real jerk (joking about rape?!), so that advice wouldn't work. It might boil down to your having to leave, which is really unfair, but life is sometimes unfair.

You might need to MORE than gently talk to him - just repeatedly and firmly but politely (IOW, don't let him have the success of seeing you're really upset) keep saying "This started as a little joke, but it's gone on too long now, and I DO NOT LIKE your comments; PLEASE stop them NOW. Would you like if I made comments to you about [insert sensitive Indonesian topic]? Let's respect each other."

Good luck, sorry about the situation

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
However, your manager sounds like a real jerk (joking about rape?!), so that advice wouldn't work. It might boil down to your having to leave, which is really unfair, but life is sometimes unfair.

Yes, the manager *is* a real jerk. I could write pages about it, but I won't.

I'm thinking of moving on anyway - maybe this is the motivation I need. I'm only there so I can make the mortgage payments. I should probably use my degree and get a better job, it's just hard to find one with flexibility like a supermarket type job. *sigh*

How bad was your harassment, Rian? Was it just off-colour jokes, or was it more than that? I wonder if a lot of guys realise how vulnerable these things can make a woman feel? I mean, it's not like they have to worry about rape every other minute.

[Ruinel]

Your boss sounds like a creep. I've got class but I'll come back on and tell you about one of my bosses when I get back.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I read an article about how women are often molested and such in the military. That seems like one of the worst jobs you could have as a woman... living with a bunch of youngish men who are away from other women for months...

A teacher at my old school molested a friend of mine earlier this school year, I dunno if I've ever mentioned it on entmoot? She isn't the most innocent case though. Apparently he told her he would drive her to a school game or something, but I guess they got sidetracked because he picked up booze at a local store place thingy and they had been smoking pot and such...
I don't know if I would want to have my parents know I was smoking pot and drinking booze just to tell on a teacher who tried to stick a hand down my pants... but then again I'm not this friend...

the teacher is in jail now.

[Rían]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
How bad was your harassment, Rian? Was it just off-colour jokes, or was it more than that? I wonder if a lot of guys realise how vulnerable these things can make a woman feel? I mean, it's not like they have to worry about rape every other minute.

It was really creepy. The way we were set up in the company was that we had an organizational boss, then we would go to various projects, so I had a project boss, too. Back when I was in the work force full time, women engineers were more rare, and I was often the only woman in a group. I got sent to this one project and was the only woman, and one day my project boss called me into the office and shut the door and started talking with me ... yuck, it still gives me the creeps. He just started saying how our working relationship needed to be improved, that he got along really well with everyone but me, and that it was really important for a team that everyone gets along, and he wanted to go out with me to improve our working relationship. I was SO naive! I didn't know better. I thought since he was my boss, I had to give him my time. Thank God I knew he was married. I just would sit there, rigid, and listen to him beg to go out with me, almost with tears in his eyes sometimes, and I would say that I would be glad to go out with him if his wife came with us. He said that wouldn't improve our working relationship, and he had to go out with me alone. This went on for several MONTHS, typically an hour or more shut up in his office with the door shut several times a week. I felt horrible and lost weight and was a wreck. He was my BOSS, after all! I didn't know better. Finally a friend wormed it out of me (he had said to not tell anyone), and her dad worked in employee relations, and he told me in no uncertain terms that I did NOT have to put up with non-work conversation, and to tell my regular boss. I did, and it was stopped instantly - my regular boss was a good guy. I can't even describe the relief when it ended.

Kind of a weird situation, but it was horrible. If he had actually touched me in the office, I would have known it was wrong, and I think he knew that - that's why he tried to get me to go with him away from work. He tried to get me to play golf with him, too - I shudder to think what could have happened.

[Rían]

Re the military - I worked in military radar, and was often in the company of military guys. Most of them were extremely polite to me, and would instantly curtail their language and topics of conversation when I walked into the room.

Another weird situation - I often worked with foreign military personnel. Once I was the only woman in a meeting, and we had lunch catered in, and I sat next to the top-ranking guy (a colonel in the Korean Air Force). I think he assumed I was provided for his after-hours enjoyment! I had joined the meeting at lunch and had not yet given a technical talk, so I guess he assumed we were providing more than lunch.... his manner was a little free towards me, then he actually told me "you're a very beautiful woman" and kinda leered. I just gave him this shocked and hurt and innocent expression and moved back just a little, and he instantly got the message. His manner changed completely, and became totally polite. Whenever I talked to him, he would stop eating and sit quietly and look at me - the complete gentleman!

[The Gaffer]

EEuuurrggg. It gives me the creeps just reading it.

To have something like that invading your work space must be so annoying. And if you kick up a stink you might end up worse off.

At the end of the day, it's bullying, even if it's inadvertent, and you are far too good to have to put up with that kind of nonsense. Is there anyone else at work you can talk to? If so, it might be an ally, if not you need to steel yourself.

My advice would be to have a proper talk to the Indonesian bloke first. He may well turn out to be like Rian's Korean fella, and just have totally the wrong end of the stick. He may well be mortified that he's making you feel uncomfortable.

The sandwich theory works well here: when giving criticism, sandwich it in between two positive things. Say:
1) You think he is a nice person
2) You find these comments unacceptable. Will he consider changing his behaviour? If he doesn't, you will have to take it further.
3) You like working with him and would not like something like this to spoil things.
It might be good if you could get a neutral witness in the room for this.

I guess you'd have to be prepared to take it all the way to walking out and doing them for sexual harassment. However, imagine how you'll feel about yourself if you stand up to them. Then imagine how you'll feel about yourself if you don't. Your self-esteem is worth far more than any job.

Or else, would you like to borrow my Sam's shears for some "pruning"?

Best of luck.

[Beor]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Re the military - I worked in military radar, and was often in the company of military guys. Most of them were extremely polite to me, and would instantly curtail their language and topics of conversation when I walked into the room.

I am glad that the guys didnt mess with you too bad. They do train us for it, as I'm sure you know. There doesnt seem to be too much sexual harassment here, but then again, I am in an Infantry unit, with only guys anyway. There have been some cases, though, but no one in my company has been the harrasser. Most of the time, the guys are so desperate to even talk to a woman, that they are too nervous to do so or they work with the gal and they seem to be friends. I'm not saying that its not going on at all, though, and when it does, it really hurts the unit. Think about it, if I was the Platoon Sergeant of some MP platoon or something, and I harrassed or allowed my subordinates to harrass a female in the platoon, what happens to the whole team thing? Its gone, and next thing you know, we're getting shot at, and when that happens, you have to have complete confidence in the people next to you. If you dont, or if they dont have confidence in you, and you give an order, who will follow it? Everyone suffers with harassment in a job like this, the people and the mission.

BoP: I'd say that The Gaffers advice is very good advice, like I said, I've been working with guys almost exclusively for close to a year now, so I cant really offer much, other than telling you what I would do about it (which you probably shouldnt do)

Tell him how you feel about it, if it doesnt stop, tell the manager, if that doesnt help, tell the next higher person about the manager, if there are still no results, "accidently" spill some beef blood on your manager, then when you go to grab a towell because you "feel bad", wrap it around the manager's neck and squeeze, all the while muttering your case in her ear, and letting her know that if it isnt resolved immediately, next time it wont be as easy as a towel around the neck (I'm leaning towards barbed wire).

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
I don't know if I would want to have my parents know I was smoking pot and drinking booze just to tell on a teacher who tried to stick a hand down my pants... but then again I'm not this friend...

the teacher is in jail now.

Smints (*saw that in nickname thread*) - in a case like that, the parents might well react emotionally and 'hit the roof' so to speak, but I think they would want to know and should know. I would want to know if it was a daughter of mine. If you can imagine yourself as a parent, would you want to know? I THINK I could handle it, and remain calm and be supportive of my daughter. I only have sons right now though... some people think fathers are more protective of their daughters (by social conditioning or by nature - is hard to say), so it's hard to say for sure. Plus, my issues right now are pre-school and kindergarten issues - not teen-age and young adult issues.

This is well beyond harassment though - when you're getting into crossing those age barriers as well as lines of authority... and when it DOES reach the point of physical contact like it did... we're talking about a serious crime, and that teacher is exactly where he belongs when he's in jail. If she hadn't reported him, he could well have done it again to someone else. The fact that there was alcohol and pot involved just indicates to me that he was further orchestrating 'the event' - and hopefully parents would be sympathetic to that, and supportive of their daughter. Obviously, they have some things to address with her, but ultimately, she needs their help right then.

[brownjenkins]

i would speak with your manager about it and ask if he intended to bring it up to the employee in question... if he did not, or brushed it off, i would seriously consider bringing the problem to someone in a higher position... typically corporate HR departments for large businesses handle these sort of issues

you may also want to look in an employee handbook if you have one... i believe it is law these days for companies to have a system in place for these kind of issues

that said, i can understand just not wanting to deal with it anymore and move on... i have no problem with that either... you should not have to be in this position in the first place and it is their loss if they fail to realize this when they put managers in place

[Rían]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Was it just off-colour jokes ...

I also heard plenty of off-color jokes, and had comments about that I looked sexy, etc., but most of these stopped fairly soon with my consistent non-verbal reply of the kind of shocked, innocent, slightly scared look. The guys that had been there longer would even tell a new guy "don't talk like that around her". And if I couldn't avoid the off-color jokes (like I was stuck in a meeting, waiting for it to start, and there were outside contractors), I would just kind of gaze around the room or write on my paper and just not respond, or if it got really bad, I would kind of cringe. They usually stopped fairly soon.

Sometimes I had to resort to a very firm verbal response, such as:
(level 1) - "I really don't care to hear remarks like that" and if that didn't work,
(level 2) - "You know, to me those kinds of personal remarks are really insulting. Please don't say them anymore".

But the difference is that I could always walk away to another part of the building. You can't, it appears. Keep us informed.


ps - you spelled "color" wrong ...


*is jealous of lovely Brit-based spellings*

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
A teacher at my old school molested a friend of mine earlier this school year, I dunno if I've ever mentioned it on entmoot? She isn't the most innocent case though. Apparently he told her he would drive her to a school game or something, but I guess they got sidetracked because he picked up booze at a local store place thingy and they had been smoking pot and such...

that was foolish judgement on her part, but still no reason for him to do what he did, the creep! I'm glad he's in jail.

As a parent, I would definitely want to know something like this. Let your parents use their authority to protect you! Speaking for all parents, I'm sorry we're not perfect but we're there for your protection and help. And if your parents tend to overreact, you might want to help them by starting with something like "now PLEASE don't overreact, because then it really makes me NOT want to tell you things, and I know that I should, so you can help me!

[BeardofPants]

Rian, that story sounds very weird, and uncomfortable, and I don't know how you managed to put up with it for so long, nor how the guy could denigrate himself to such a low level of pathetic-ness. Having said that - it's always awkward dealing with these things, isn't it?

Ruinel, we're still waiting for your story! C'mon, I wanna hear how you shoved the pencil up his proverbial left nostril!

Anyway, thinking about it, I don't think I want to make anything formal about this, because the guy is already on two written warnings (both of which were not directly his fault - both involving paperwork not being completed properly with expired products, and it may/may not have been him - he got the warnings along with everyone else slicing meat that day...), and if he got another one, he'd be fired, which seems to me to be a tad unfair. I guess next time he makes a joke that makes me uncomfortable, I'll just have to tell him. Be firm. *sigh*

Thanks for the advice!

[Dúnedain]

Sorry to impede, but everyone needs to learn about Sexual Harrassment through this:



[song and dance]
Who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree?
Sexual Harassment Panda.
Who explains sexual harassment to you and me?
Sexual Harassment Panda.
"Don't say that! Don't touch there!
Don't be nasty!" says the silly bear.
He's come to tell you what's right and wrong.
Sexual Harassment Panda.
Hi, boys and girls. [the class says nothing]

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I don't know how hers reacted she doesn't want to talk about the whole thing... plus I'm not allowed to hang out with her anymore because my parents read it in the newspaper... and they don't want me to hang out with someone who drinks and does pot (haha)... eugh MY parents overreacted heh

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
...Ruinel, we're still waiting for your story! C'mon, I wanna hear how you shoved the pencil up his proverbial left nostril! ...

Sorry... I got tied up with other stuff, and I completey forgot I'd said I'd post my story.

One summer I got a job working as a secretary for a construction company. In the office was just me and the owner. He was a jerk. Every Friday, he'd go to the bank and pick up a few hundred dollar bills at the bank for the weekend. When he got back, he'd sit his butt down on my desk while I was trying to finish payroll or something and he'd flash the hundreds in my face. Then he'd ask me what I was doing later, if I wanted to make a little extra money. I told him that there wasn't enough money in the world for me to waste my time looking for his 'little friend' with a magnifying glass and a pair of tweezers. Besides, I might slip and pinch it off. The first time I came back at him like that, he just stared at me in astonishment... mouth agape. I suppose he pulled that on everyone he hired, and I was the first one that actually had a come back and put it back in his face.

What an @$$. I kept the job for the summer, because I needed the money for school, and it paid fairly decent. For the other days of the week, I had to lie about him not being there, among other things. I was so happy when, at the end of the summer, I could tell him what a total jerk he was.

[EDIT: I just wanted to make it clear. This happened to me every friggin' Friday afternoon as long as I worked for that jerk.]