12-31-2003, 02:52 PM | #1 | |||||||
High King of Númenórë
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Oldest living Elf in ME...
Ok this is an offshoot of a thread that went off topic, lol I figured it should continue in it's own thread
Here is what people have said so far: Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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12-31-2003, 02:57 PM | #2 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Here is proof that Celeborn is older than Galadriel:
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Though the only problem with this is that he has a line of Elves before him, so this may be a contradiction on Tolkien's part. Galadhon was Celeborn's father. Galadhon was the son of Elmo, Thingol's brother, and Elmo awoke at Cuiviénen...
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen Last edited by Dúnedain : 12-31-2003 at 03:01 PM. |
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12-31-2003, 03:40 PM | #3 | |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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12-31-2003, 03:40 PM | #4 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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another, possibly as old as Cirdan...
Lenwë ~ leader of the teleri who went south during their journey west... i don't think his fate is ever discussed, though his son Denthor was killed in beleriand
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12-31-2003, 05:24 PM | #5 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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12-31-2003, 06:51 PM | #6 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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Did Cirdan awake at Cuivienen? and doesn't Tolkien later on say that Celeborn was born in the Undying Lands and not in Beleriand?
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12-31-2003, 09:14 PM | #7 | |
High King of Númenórë
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Quote:
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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01-01-2004, 09:29 AM | #8 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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If Tolkien didn't say I guess we will never know whether he is older than Celeborn. Arien, you're right, but personally I think that version is too unfinished to rely on.
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01-01-2004, 11:34 AM | #9 |
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I have always thought that "the days of dawn" referred to the dawning of the Sun, which happened quite late in the First Age, considerably after Galadriel's birth. It says in The Encyclopedia of Arda that Cirdan may have awakened at Cuvienen, but that is hardlay a reliable source.
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01-01-2004, 12:02 PM | #10 | |||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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01-01-2004, 02:02 PM | #11 |
AngAdan
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Cirdan is clearly older than Galadriel, he was already alive and a senior lord (which would stronly suggest his seniority among thoses who started the great journey) when the great jouney reach Beleriand. Almost as certainly he is older than Celeborn. We do not an explicit stament of Cleborn's birth, but the overwhelming probability is that he was born in Belariand after the arrival there, being a few generations down from Thingol's younger brother Elmo, or in an alternate geneology tinkered with by JRRT (and apparently abandoned) from Olwe and born in Valinor.
There may be many unaamed lower class elves older than all of them. Among the Elves, who do not die of medical problems or age, the lower classes likely had a higher survival rate than the nobility, with was more concerned with the predominate hazard to elf life, warfare. Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 01-05-2004 at 07:09 PM. |
01-01-2004, 05:30 PM | #12 |
High King of Númenórë
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Maybe we should contact Christopher Tolkien to help in our search of the Oldest of Living Elves in ME
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
01-02-2004, 08:43 AM | #13 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Interesting debate. Personally I think Cirdan is oldest living elf (goes to show that living next to the sea does improve your heakth ) of which we know the name. He's named pretty early on in the Silmarillion, when the Sindar and the Falathrim settled in Beleriand and the seashore.
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01-04-2004, 06:43 AM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
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I like to think Cirdan is the oldest of all elves. The first to awake and the last to leave. Kinda brings a tear to your eye.
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. |
01-05-2004, 02:22 PM | #15 |
Enting
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wow.
I figured Galadriel was the oldest for a long time. I never heard cirdan awoke at cuivienen but I havent read past home 9. Although it is possible that some unnamed "lower class" elf lived longer. [EDITED- for off topic remarks Last edited by Sister Golden Hair
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01-05-2004, 02:50 PM | #16 |
The Insufferable
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That Cirdan awoke at Cuivienen is never stated by Tolkien that I recall, but it is often assumed by the reader. You should note that there is a difference.
I'm a bit puzzled by the references to Thingol's younger brother as 'Elmo'. The four original lords of the Eldar were Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe, and Olwe. Elwe later became known as Singollo (greycloak) or Thingol, and remained in Beleriand, while Olwe led the Teleri that migrated to Aman. I'm not really sure how it would work out that Celeborn (who was living in Doriath when he met Galadriel, correct?) would have been descended from Olwe, who left Middle Earth before Doriath was founded. And since Olwe only hung around for a few centuries, any son he had in Beleriand wouldn't really be old enough to stay behind when the host left. Am I overlooking something here? I'm tempted to say that Galadriel wasn't anywhere close to the Eldest of elves, but then again, many of the first few generations in Beleriand were killed, so she's almost certainly the olderst remaining Noldor. Thranduil's age should be considered- he was the king of the elves in Mirkwood, an area settled during the great journey. He was also Celeborn's kinsman, so there is a chance he is quite old indeed.
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01-05-2004, 02:54 PM | #17 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Hmmmm... *starts thinking how to transfer sons' love of Elmo to love of Tolkien... maybe this little bit of confusion can be useful * |
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01-05-2004, 02:58 PM | #18 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(Val - I slip into the kids' room at night, when they're asleep, and whisper in their ears "I love Tolkien!" )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-05-2004, 03:00 PM | #19 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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PS - nice to see you again, Wayfarer! I hope school is going well.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-05-2004, 03:20 PM | #20 |
The Insufferable
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Well, actually, you see... er... There's a slight glitch in my registration for next year's classes. This /last/ semester went well though. In some ways.
Ehem. Anyway. On the question of elves, age, and facial hair, I've been wondering- does Ingwe have a beard? I can just picture it- the lord of the Vanyar sitting across from Manwe at dinner, with Brad Pitt lips, Elijah Woods eyes, Fabio hair, and a Grizzly Adams beard. ]:-D I also wonder whether it's possible that some of the Avari would have outlived all the generations of the Eldar. It's certainly possible, given that they were outside the scope of the great wars.
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