07-26-2005, 09:15 PM | #1 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Moria naming error?
I was reading thru some Tolkien websites and came across an intriguing question pointing out a possible slip on JRRT's part (it's so tempting to try and find them!) -
If the Elves of Hollin were friendly with Durin's folk in Khazad-dum, and the name Moria (black chasm/pit) wasn't given until many years later, why does it say "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria" on the doors?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-26-2005, 10:49 PM | #2 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Left of Rock, Right of Hard Place
Posts: 986
|
Quote:
(I really do not have a better reason than that.)
__________________
Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
|
07-26-2005, 10:56 PM | #3 |
Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe
Posts: 5,408
|
Sounds good enough for me.
__________________
KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator
|
07-27-2005, 12:16 AM | #4 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Probably just a bit of liberality with the translation... those gathered knew the place as 'Moria', so Gandalf translated it as Moria??
(or do the letters on the picture spell out 'Moria' in Elvish... probably do, don't they?)
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
07-27-2005, 12:18 AM | #5 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
that's what I thought at first, but then remembered the letters on the picture spell Moria in Elvish! (I had translated JRRT's picture myself before and remembered)
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-27-2005, 01:26 AM | #6 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Does it say anywhere that the name Moria was given many years later than the death of Celebrimbor?
The Elves of Hollin were friends with the Dwarves, but that didn't stop them of making their own names of the mountains, and presumably not of Khazad-Dum either. Though the name was given without love, I don't think it was given with malice. To the Elves, the Dwarrowdelf was a Black Chasm.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
07-27-2005, 09:53 AM | #7 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
i don't have the books on hand... but i thought that in the appendix (durin's folk or tale of years) it mentioned the name "moria" first being used after the balrog chased the dwarves out
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
07-27-2005, 11:07 AM | #8 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
Khazad-dum was called the Dwarrowdelf in Westron and Hadhodrond in Sindarin, although the more usual Elvish name, especially after the freeing of the Balrog, was Moria. From the latter name came the Westron Black Pit, Black Chasm, and Mines of Moria......Tolkein's world from A-Z
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
07-27-2005, 12:36 PM | #9 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
||
07-27-2005, 02:25 PM | #10 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
From HoME 11, WOTJ ...
(oh, all RIGHT - History of Middle Earth Vol. 11 - The War of the Jewels) ... Quote:
So it seems like it wasn't called Moria until after the Roggie got loose ... The corresponding passage in the Sil seems to be chpt 10, "Of the Sindar" - Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 07-27-2005 at 02:31 PM. |
|||
07-27-2005, 02:33 PM | #11 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Thanks for the reference R*an!
The mystery remains yet unsolved then.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 07-27-2005 at 02:35 PM. |
07-27-2005, 02:38 PM | #12 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
You're welcome - book indexes are sure nice!!! As long as I have a faint memory of reading something somewhere, I can usually find it with the help of the indexes
It sure seems like there might have been a mistake, don't you think? Esp. since it gives the previous Elven name (Hadhodrond). Seems odd, though - it's hard to believe that with how careful Tolkien was, that this was a mistake. But I've missed it all these years, too! In the Sil appendix, it says that "hadhod" was a rendering of Khazad into Sindarin sounds, and "rond" is a vaulted or arched roof, or a large hall with a roof like that (cf. Aglarond). Khazad - the name of the Dwarves in their own language.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 07-27-2005 at 02:40 PM. |
07-27-2005, 03:26 PM | #13 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Perhaps Tolkien changed his mind on when the name was used, as he changed his mind in many other things regarding Middle Earth. But I think it is unlikely, he said many times that he felt himself bound by the published material in LotR. So it's probably a slip. Even the professor is human.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
07-27-2005, 03:27 PM | #14 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
Quote:
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
|
07-27-2005, 04:12 PM | #15 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
07-27-2005, 04:13 PM | #16 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
....what about us half humans?
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
07-28-2005, 01:47 AM | #17 | |
Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe
Posts: 5,408
|
Quote:
__________________
KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator
|
|
07-28-2005, 01:57 AM | #18 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
(hey, I"m half-elven! ) That would sure be nice, trolls' bane - I hear rumors of LOTR being in a word document *innocent look* but I don't think HoME books are, or the Sil.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
07-28-2005, 02:24 AM | #19 |
Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Campsite-by-Giraffe
Posts: 5,408
|
I'd buy it right away! Then I don't have to buy individual books. Just print em out!
__________________
KI6PFA Amateur Radio Operator
|
09-13-2005, 10:02 AM | #20 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: England
Posts: 28
|
how did you get it into a word document? or did you spend along time writing it out?
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
How many times had Gandalf been to Moria? | Valandil | Middle Earth | 15 | 11-17-2006 09:15 AM |
Did Sauron imprison the Moria Balrog? | CAB | Lord of the Rings Books | 35 | 08-22-2006 02:38 AM |
Deciphering an error | Mercutio | Feedback and Tech Problems | 4 | 02-07-2005 02:45 PM |
Moria, Sauron, and the Balrog | Forkbeard | Lord of the Rings Books | 40 | 10-22-2004 02:57 PM |
Gandalf and Moria | Elvet | Middle Earth | 4 | 03-23-2002 04:10 PM |