03-07-2002, 12:56 PM | #1 |
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"Flame of Udun"?
Hopefully this is in the right forum, as it pertains both to the books and to the film.
Okay. At the bridge of Khazad-Dum, Gandalf calls the balrog "Flame of Udun". Maybe should have added, "overgrown, overambitious charcoal briquette" to it. However, Udun is the valley right behind the Morannon in Mordor. Now, the Balrogs were servants of Morgoth, and the Balrog in Moria wasn't exactly in outright allegiance with Sauron. So, since there is no real direct link with Mordor and Balrogs, why call the Balrog "Flame of Udun"? Curious what you folks think. Sorry if this has been covered in another thread already.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-07-2002, 01:06 PM | #2 |
Hobbit
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This is only a suggestion...
Balrogs were Maia spirits of fire. They got their fir from the Imperishible Flame. I'm not sure, but isn't Udun another name for the Imperishible Flame
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03-07-2002, 01:34 PM | #3 |
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no, white rider, the "unperishable flame" is the flame of Anor. Udun is the valley behind the Morannon in Mordor.
BTW, welcome to the Moot!
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-07-2002, 02:10 PM | #4 |
Elven Warrior
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I think that Udun is an elvish word for Morgoth's first middle earth digs. Utumno. I read this somewhere but I can't locate the source. I want to say it is Sindarin word but I could be mistaken.
And if this is so, it makes perfect sense that Gandalf would call the balrog by such a name. I get confused with the whole Thangordrim/Utumno thing. Good thing the Valar wiped it off the map! Any lore masters out there to set this mater straight?
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03-07-2002, 02:17 PM | #5 |
Elven Warrior
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I thought that all the balrogs originated in Angband and those that were not killed in the Great Battle fled "(to) caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth". Would Gandalf have been aware of any others, as well as the one in Moria?
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03-07-2002, 02:23 PM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
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Looking in the LotR Index of Places, it lists Udun thus:
Udun, hell: flame of Udun, 322; a region of Mordor, 907, 910. Some help but not lots.
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03-07-2002, 03:25 PM | #7 |
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Udûn is the Grey-Elven word for Utumno, which was the Stronghold of Melkor in the first age. I don't know why Udûn was named Udûn for, I guess it may be a homage to Melkor, like Grond was.
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03-07-2002, 06:13 PM | #8 |
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I always thought that our balrog was the last one?
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03-07-2002, 07:10 PM | #9 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Udun in Mordor is almost certainly homage to Morgoth. The Balrog having served in Udun is thus the flame of Ududn.
More interesting: The secret flame of Anor? What is it The ring or perhaps Eru himself.
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03-07-2002, 08:23 PM | #10 |
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Hmmm. Udun means Hell? Pailan, from what edition does that Index entry come? I'm not sure that it's very accurate. There IS no concept of hell in Lord of the Rings, so how could Udun mean hell?
Welcome to the Moot, Elvet. I'm not all that sure that Gandalf knew that Durin's Bane was actually a balrog til the Smoking Beast showed up right before the bridge at Khazad-Dum. Good point, CBG, and the "homage to Morgoth" naming Grond the ram after Grond the hammer got right past me. Good call. I wonder if Sauron had a picture of Morgoth all nicely framed sitting on his nightstand..... "To Sauron, worst lieutenant a guy could have ....I really mean it.....don't ever change. Morgie."
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-07-2002, 09:18 PM | #11 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Sauron was a god to his slaves, though it appears he is more the high priest as it were-turning people to worship Melkor. See the Akallebeth for my reasoning.
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03-08-2002, 01:12 AM | #12 | |
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Bropous, there does not appear to be any traditional Christian idea of Hell in Tolkien's world, you're right,* but Angand is called "Hell" several times in Tolkien's writings, including the Silmarillion as published. It believe it says "(Hell)" below "Udûn" on the LotR map, though. The Balrog may very well be called a Demon from Hell, but certainly not in the traditional sense.
I guess the reference is to Utumno, rather than the Udûn of Mordor. *I came across something interesting on the subject a while ago. It is in the History of Middle-earth, Volume X, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, The 'Tale of Adanel'. It is the First Age Edain's legend concerning the Fall of Man. When the Men betray the Voice (the One) and begin worshipping Morgoth, there is this passage: Quote:
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03-08-2002, 10:59 AM | #13 | ||
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Quote:
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03-08-2002, 11:05 AM | #14 |
Elf Lord
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"The secret flame of Anor?"
I made a long post about this somewhat recently. I'll see if I can find it. Of course I don't know what it is, but I have my theories. ... Here it is. I just had to search for "Flame of Anor" in order to find it. Click here.
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03-08-2002, 11:55 AM | #15 |
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Yeah, Pailan, now it confuses me too. Not only the fact that "hell" appears after Udun in the Index of that edition, but also Nolendil's indication that "hell" also occurs on the map. I guess I missed the hell references. I could have sworn it wasn't mentioned.
Good thorough post on the Flame of Anor, Nolendil!
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-08-2002, 12:00 PM | #16 | |
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I was over at The Encyclopedia of Arda, and I snagged this entry from them concerning Udun:
Quote:
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03-08-2002, 03:13 PM | #17 | |
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The Index to the Silmarillion gives this entry
Quote:
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03-08-2002, 03:25 PM | #18 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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I recall reading hell in refrence to Utumno
I really need to buy Morgoth's ring...
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03-08-2002, 11:16 PM | #19 |
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OK, Foster gives three different definitions and 2 translations for Udun. (From the Complete Guide to Middle-earth)
Udun- (Sindarin-un-west? Hell?) The source of the dark flame of the Balrogs, possibly Utumno, possibly the darkness of the Spirit of Melkor. Udun-(Sindarin-not-valley?) Utumno Udun- The circular plain in Mordor between Isenmouthe and Cirith Gorgor. Then we have: The Flame of Anor- The power wielded by Gandalf, possibly an allusion to the white light of the Sun as a symbol of the Secret Fire. The Flame of Udun- The fire of the Balrog. |
03-09-2002, 04:21 PM | #20 | |
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Thank you very much bropous. I really do feel appreciated here.
Pailan, I don't know where to find the linguistic relationship between Udûn and Utumno, but you can see that they are similar just by looking at them. All the Elvish languages find their origin in one Elvish language called by Tolkien Primitive Quendian. So words tend to be related. The Nandorin word for "Utumno" was "Utum", which is even closer to Udûn. In the Nandorin section of the Ardalambion, respected linguist Helgeh Fauskanger writes: Quote:
SGH, Robert Foster is looked down upon by linguists. He wasn't one and he's outdated, that's his problem. But Helgeh Fauskanger says Primitive Quendian Utubno means "very low place".
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