04-10-2002, 02:12 AM | #1 |
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Question: Timeline and the Full Moon
When Frodo, Sam, and Sméagol are outside of Morannon, the moon is three days from full. The look at the gates on Rethe 5 during the day, and it is night when the narrator says "three days from full".
The night of Rethe 6 therefore the moon is two days from full. The night of Rethe 7 therefore the moon is one day from full. When Frodo, Sam, and Faramir are looking at the moon from Henneth Annûn, the moon is full. They leave Henneth Annûn at dawn on Rethe 8. In TTT it says: "Far off in the west the full moon was sinking, round and white." But the night of Rethe 8 is the real full moon, even though it is pitch black at midnight at the stone of Erech because the moon rises after midnight. When Pippin looks out from under Gandalf's cloak on the back of Shadowfax, it is the third night since he looked in the stone, and he wonders if Frodo and Sam are OK. He looked in the Palantir on Rethe 5, so it is the night of Rethe 8. But it says "he did not know that Frodo from far away looked on the same moon". And no matter how you calculate it, backwards from the Dawnless Day or forward from the confrontation with Saruman, Frodo looks at the moon on the morning of the 8th and Pippin looks at it on the morning of the 9th (because it's after midnight). But then we have another day and night before we get to Minas Tirith on the morning of the 9th, so by that reckoning, they are looking at the moon at the same tiime. What do think? Have I found a glitch in the timeline? Is the moon still one day from full when they actually see it? Or is it only confusing me that he says three days from full when he's before Morannon, and it's really two days from full at that time?
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04-12-2002, 03:59 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Well firstly has it occured to you that the fictional place of middle earth may have a different moon to ours? I mean hobbits live there and you can actually creta intelligent rings. I'm not quite sure they would have exactly the same moon!
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04-12-2002, 04:14 PM | #3 |
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Indeed, their moon is a flower!
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04-12-2002, 04:16 PM | #4 |
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um...ooookkkkk.
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04-12-2002, 04:28 PM | #5 |
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It's all in the Silmarilion.
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04-12-2002, 04:32 PM | #6 |
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That ummm wasn't my question.
I did not ask if the moon was made of cheese! I asked if you ever counted the waking and sleeping from the various points ... oh go read the post, please.
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 04-12-2002 at 05:06 PM. |
04-12-2002, 05:34 PM | #7 |
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I got a little confused, but remember, sometimes the moon doesn't rise until after midnight, and sometimes it rises during the day (see Silm for explanation of that). I'll have to go back and look to see about the days and all that.
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04-12-2002, 05:46 PM | #8 |
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One time when I was reading the part in TTT where Frodo and Sam are at the Crossroads and it recounts where all their friends are at that same time I tried to figure all that out. I think there is a discrepency in there somewhere, but time in Middle Earth just seems to stretch and bend out of my grasp.
Btw, it is the same moon as ours, but the nature of it's orbit may have shifted since then. It was a long time ago after all. |
04-12-2002, 07:07 PM | #9 |
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I think what it boils down to is this:
Frodo and Pippin are definitely looking at the moon at the same time. But when Frodo and Sam and Smeagol are at Morannon waiting for the sun to set, Tolkien says the moon is three nightsfrom full. But that night, after midnight, when the moon rises, it is actually two nights from full, as shown by the timeline. So I think he might have made a mistake. It isn't easy to catch a genius goofing up something like this. In fact, I may be wrong and it is right to see three nights from full until it rises and is two nights from full. *shrug* But it's fun to try to figure it out.
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04-12-2002, 07:25 PM | #10 |
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I'm reading HoMe - treason of Isenguard . It seems that Tolkien tried to calculate the phases of the moon so that they would appear to be accurate with the timelines. He didn't fix all of them in the rewrites. I think there is another time at the West Gate of Moria that an indescrepancy happens - it should have been a waning moon, yet they could see the writing in the moonlight.
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04-12-2002, 07:57 PM | #11 |
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How about this?
When it says the "moon was now three nights from the full" in 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit' dusk had just fallen, so it appears that the Professor counted Mar. 5th as the first night (so 6th=2, 7th=3). When Pippin counted "[three] nights since he had looked in the Stone" he did the same thing. He was awake for hours after looking in the Palantir on the 5th, so he apparently counted that night as the first "since" he had looked in the Stone.
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04-12-2002, 08:10 PM | #12 |
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I can count 1,2,3,4,5 on one hand and 10,9,8,7,6 on the other, but it doesn't mean I have 11 fingers.
So if tonight is three nights from full and the first night, then tomorrow is two nights from full and the second night, and the night after is one night from full and the third night, it's still the next night that the moon is full. But maybe it was that dusk still counts as that day, so at midnight it became two nights from full, and that could be it.
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 04-12-2002 at 08:11 PM. |
04-12-2002, 08:13 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
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04-12-2002, 08:44 PM | #14 |
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I started with Return of the Shadow and found it somewhat confusing - all the different versions of the story. But once I got into the rhythym of the rerwites, and thanks to Christopher Tolkien's narrative, I'm really enjoying the intimate detail of the development of the books. Cool stuff indeed!I highly recommend it for anyone who loves the books.
P.S. The Letters are great, too.
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04-13-2002, 12:34 AM | #15 |
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"The moon was now three nights from full" In three nights the moon would be full, not after three nights. In other words the moon would be full on the third night from "now". This was said at dusk on the 5th. That night (5th) was the first night. The next night (6th) was the second night. The next night (7th) was the third night, on which the moon would be full.
Elfhelm: This is fun! I'll keep trying.
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04-15-2002, 02:16 PM | #16 |
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Oh no. That actually made sense!
So where I read "three nights from full" as meaning "after 3 more nights of waxing the moon will be full", you read "in three nights the moon will be full". I'll accept that and chalk it up to my misreading.
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04-16-2002, 04:38 AM | #17 |
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I agree that makes sense. Anyone can make mistakes though, it may be a slight flaw in LoTR, it doesn't matter very much but it's intriguing) so I'll have to look in Journeys of Frodo and see what they make of it. Maybe Tolkien put it in so people could have this debate? I bet he's smiling down and laughing...
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04-16-2002, 04:40 AM | #18 |
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Half a bracket? I must be mad!
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04-16-2002, 11:16 AM | #19 | |
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Quote:
Good question and answers.
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