03-10-2004, 09:16 AM | #1 | |||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
The power of a curse
In the Sil project we have been talking about the curse of Morgoth upon Húrin and his kin, and this has made me think about curses in general. What is the power behind a curse?
This is the curse of Morgoth: Quote:
Quote:
There's another example in UT, where the Dwarf Mîm lays a curse upon the Man who killed his son: Quote:
Thoughts, anyone?
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
|||
03-10-2004, 09:44 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Nice topic.
In ME, it seems that spoken words have greater power than we're used to. Here are some examples from LOTR: - Gandalf's "word of Command" to stop the balrog from opening the door in Moria - Frodo's "curse" on Gollum ("If you touch it again you shall be cast into the fire yourself") - the Oathbreakers from the Paths of the Dead. It seems that words are closely tied to the essence of the world and can directly make things happen (gandalf). They can also indirectly, or inadvertently, make things happen (Oathbreakers) And it can work the other way: spoken words prophesying events such that we're not sure whether the words cause the events or a vision of the events prompted the words (Frodo) I think all of this is a monster metaphor for the way we use language to express our thoughts about the world, and the reciprocal way in which language frames what we think. PS - forgot about Bobmadil's songs! Last edited by The Gaffer : 03-10-2004 at 09:45 AM. |
03-10-2004, 12:13 PM | #3 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
This IS an interesting topic. I don't think just anyone's words could be effective as a curse (and we could probably talk about the opposite - a blessing - in the same way). In general, I think there needs to be either a person or an object of 'power' for these to be effective. Gandalf was a powerful being himself. In the case of Isildur, there seems to have been something 'special' about the Stone of Erech, which he brought from Numenor. Did Isildur also have a measure of 'power' in a spiritual sense? As the leader of the Faithful Numenoreans in Gondor? Would the Valar have added power to his words? In the case of Frodo, Gollum actually swore his oath on The One Ring. It was the Ring which doomed Gollum when he broke his oath.
I can't think of any case where a 'regular person' was able to effectively bless or curse... though that may be possible as well. Also - taken as 'mythology' stories, I think we see this in other mythologies - hence the carry-over? Our own words have power to help or to harm others... maybe this point just gets carried further in these stories. There are a few biblical references about 'blessing' and 'cursing'... I don't know that much of that has made it into official doctrine for many churches... but it's interesting food for thought. Does anyone remember any statements by JRRT on the matter?
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
03-10-2004, 01:36 PM | #4 |
founder of the color blue
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
|
I thought the ring told him not to touch him again, or he would be cast into the fire, but I may have just read it wrong.
I like the curse things too, and I also believe, as I said in the Sil forum, and I believe in another thread called Free Will and Turin Turambar (I think), that I dont think that the curse of Morgoth upon Hurins kin had much to do with the actual events, other than what Morgoth did directly to Turin to move him like a pawn. The curse with Frodo or the ring or whatever, on Gollum I dont think was a curse so much as foreshadowing or prophecy. The one you mention, though, about the dead guys that were cursed by Isildur, now that is a curse! Man, they really screwed up! Where did he get the power? I think that just like with the eagles, sometimes the Valar will help out the people of Middle-earth, and oaths seem to be a big thing in the whole mythos (hope thats the right word). The oath thing was in effect all throughout the first age.
__________________
Well, there it is. |
03-10-2004, 02:33 PM | #5 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
the oath theme is powerful because, taditionally and historically, once you have sworn an oath you are bound by it in that you should honour your own words on pain of death, which is where the curse theme comes in, if by breaking an oth, you are then subject to some curse or other
|
03-10-2004, 02:53 PM | #6 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
In the case of Isildur I was thinking that he did not have that kind of power in himself, nor was it in the Stone. It was the unfaithfulness of the Men of the Mountain which gave Isildur the right to condemn them, a right I think he, and the Oathbreakers too, recognised as a 'law'. As Beor and LCoU said, breaking an Oath is indeed a very serious matter, which do not go unpunished. This line of thought could fit well in the case of Mîm's curse too, where he cursed the man who unjustly killed his son. He had the moral right on his side. Morgoth of course had not any moral advantage over Húrin, but he didn't need it, he was the most powerful of the Ainur. There is also the curse that was uttered by Mandos (or one of his servants) on the flight of the Noldor. Though this may be seen as partly a foretelling in addition to a curse. But I think it was also a moral reaction to the kinslaying.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 03-10-2004 at 02:56 PM. |
|
03-10-2004, 03:05 PM | #7 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
i have also thought about the passage in LOTR, where gandalf says that a blessing shall be placed on barliman butterbur's beer
is this just harmless chitter chatter aswell i know as a maia, gandalf had power, but did those powers extend to making beer taste nice and how about when galadriel tells gimli that he will be blessed with power over gold, and gold shall have no power ovr him |
03-10-2004, 03:10 PM | #8 |
founder of the color blue
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
|
Didnt Butterbur's beer get really good after the war, though? Now thats a good curse!
I like the moral right thing you put out there too, Artanis, you make a good point.
__________________
Well, there it is. |
03-10-2004, 04:01 PM | #9 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Artanis, I strongly agree with you about most of these curses being triggered by a broken oath... or otherwise from a position of moral advantage (except in the case of Morgoth's curse on the family of Hurin... but he IS Morgoth, after all! ). However, I wonder if this is enough in itself... or if there IS any more required (like a 'special' stone or a magic ring?). Perhaps you're correct and the moral rightness of the aggrieved party who lays the curse triggers the actions of the Valar (or maybe 'natural moral consequences??).
I wonder what JRRT may have drawn from for these. Drawing a blank myself right now, but what are some other 'mythological' examples of the 'oath-curse' relationship?
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
03-10-2004, 06:32 PM | #10 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,215
|
Perhaps there also has to be some unforced and unwilled action which effects the person giving the curse to enable the curse with power. In Morgoth's case, didn't Hurin give him the (figurative) finger by taunting him and refusing to be daunted by Morgoth? That is, the curse may have to be spontaneous and not preplanned, otherwise Morgoth could have cheerily cursed elves in Beleriand every fortnight or so and bundled them out of Middle-earth in no time.
Also, a suggestion about The Paths of the Dead guys. Isildur was a high Numenorean King, and of the Faithful, as such a descendant of Elros and earlier of Melian (granted a rather teensy dna percentage). Perhaps those factors could be imagined as adding efficacy to a curse, to a much lesser extent then it's been suggested above that Morgoth had as the greatest of the Valar?
__________________
Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 03-10-2004 at 07:01 PM. |
03-11-2004, 04:21 PM | #11 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Were the words of Mandos more like a 'curse' or more like 'prophecy'? Is what he said referred to in both ways?
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
03-11-2004, 05:10 PM | #12 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
It is called both a curse and a prophecy (Quenta), and also the Doom of the Noldor (Annals of Valinor).
From the Quenta: Quote:
I think JRRT also referred to it as a curse in one of his letters, but right now I'm unable to find it. Edit: "There he spake ... " What a language!
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 03-11-2004 at 05:13 PM. |
|
03-15-2004, 05:16 AM | #13 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
In a world that practically came into being with one single word (Eä!) I suppose words have a special power.
I like the theories about the significance of oaths and the consequenses of breaking them. But to me it also seemed that the moment was important too. This is probably just me but I've a feeling that each time such a curse is placed on someone it's at a certain turningpoint in history; a crossroad so to say with many different futures in the balance where the whole world can be sent tumbling down another path in history. And that the 'magic' of the moment heigthened the effect of the curse. That probably didn't make much sense, did it?
__________________
We are not things. |
03-15-2004, 11:03 AM | #14 | |
Mootis per forum
Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
|
Quote:
I think that not everybody can be cursed. When we read the story of a cursed one we always debate about doom and free will, and we might never stop debating this. Perhaps both things are the same. I think that not everybody "has got" the same level of free will. Free will requires integrity of life and stregth of will. It is something that every single person must achieve in their life. The best persons (perhaps the heroes) are those who have their free will intact even in the hardest momments. But with their actions, people can be "loosing" their free will, enslaving themselves... If somebody, with moral aucthority, curses in the right momment, and with the right words, somebody who has "spent" his free will, he could perhaps "fasten" his doom definitely. See, Feanor and sons have stuck their will in recovering the silmarilli. After the kinslaying and seeing that the won't repent of their acts, Eonwe uses his moral aucthority to turn their fixation against themselves.
__________________
Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
|
03-19-2004, 12:48 PM | #15 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
Concur?
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
|
03-19-2004, 01:58 PM | #16 | |
Mootis per forum
Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
|
Quote:
When you take an oath you also take an "oath-guarantor" or witness (like Gollum swearing on the Ring). The only way to escape of the doom of an injust oath I think it would be by a leave given by the guarantor. Obviously if the guarantor is God he'll be more than willing to give you leave... Fanor and sons took Manwe and Varda as witnesses of their oath. So, the only way to escape from their "auto-curse" was to "ask" them leave to break the oath, that is to beg their pardon, as Mandos said in his prophecy.
__________________
Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
|
03-19-2004, 02:05 PM | #17 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
|
03-19-2004, 05:16 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,215
|
Originally posted by fat middle!
When you take an oath you also take an "oath-guarantor" or witness (like Gollum swearing on the Ring). The only way to escape of the doom of an injust oath I think it would be by a leave given by the guarantor. Obviously if the guarantor is God he'll be more than willing to give you leave... Fanor and sons took Manwe and Varda as witnesses of their oath. So, the only way to escape from their "auto-curse" was to "ask" them leave to break the oath, that is to beg their pardon, as Mandos said in his prophecy. ______________________________ Absatively! I think you've got it, which is why I've never been too satisfied with the conclusion of the final Maglor/Maedhros argument, when to continue their vow was abviously not only pointless but could only cause more evil results. ""And Maedhros answered: 'But how shall our voices reach to Iluvatar beyond the circles of the World?.....Who shall release us?' " Perhaps they were suffering from, post traumatic stress disorder, shell shock, whatever. (George Patton would have slapped them silly). (can't get other Smilies to work).
__________________
Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! |
03-19-2004, 05:34 PM | #19 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
03-19-2004, 05:37 PM | #20 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Sauron's Spirit Inside the Ring | Varda | Lord of the Rings Books | 23 | 11-08-2010 11:44 PM |
The Rings of Power | Valtir | The Silmarillion | 1 | 10-15-2006 02:18 PM |
why was the power of the three elf rings diminished? | The Wizard from Milan | Lord of the Rings Books | 4 | 02-07-2005 01:23 PM |
Your thoughts on animal rights | afro-elf | General Messages | 91 | 12-18-2002 05:44 AM |
magic and power | afro-elf | Middle Earth | 9 | 10-08-2001 09:52 PM |