02-16-2004, 05:41 PM | #1 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Sexual Harassment?
It's the million dollar question... well, not quite, but it's extremely relevant in this day and age, where the line between the sexes is just that much more blurred in the work force. Women are now 'allowed' to work in environments that were previously the sole domain of men. Recently in New Zealand, a study was undertaken of women working within the police force. It was found that a majority felt that they were condescended upon because of their gender. Many reported incidents of sexual harassment that ranged from touching, jokes of an undesirable nature, to out-and-out sexual assault, in the Police Force.
Sexual harassment is defined by Merriam-Webster as:
Wikipedia:
According to the movie Disclosure, sexual harassment is about POWER. However, personal experience has lead me to believe that it is not as clear-cut as that; sexual harassment can be about many things. A harmless flirtation could be deemed as sexual harassment. All it takes is an action deemed as unsuitable by one party for it be of a harassment nature (as noted by the definitions above). I have personally experienced harassment from one extreme to another: from touching, to crude jokes, to minor assault. ALL of these experiences made me feel uncomfortable, ill-at-ease, vulnerable. However, not all were intentional. Obviously the touching/assault were WAY out of line, and I let both guys know that they stepped outside the bounds of decency, and that if they were to proceed any further, I would take a sharp pencil and jab it up their respective left nostrils! In the case of jokes though, I am currently experiencing an unwitting form of harassment. The guy I work with is from Indonesia. I don't know if it is a cultural thing, or if he genuinely doesn't have a clue, but some of his jokes are off-colour, and they make me feel distinctly uncomfortable. Problem is: I like the guy... I don't want to make him feel bad or anything, but some of the stuff he says does make me feel put-upon, and vulnerable. An example, at work they are thinking about changing our uniforms (I work part-time in a supermarket). I joked that this guy would look great in a skirt, and he joked back that I would look better in a bikini. That was okay - but then he started going on about how sexy I would look in a bikini, and doing all that hubba-hubba crap, which made me feel like a slab of meat or something. On top of this, the second-in-charge is encouraging him!! She keeps joking about how he should take me out, and blah-blah-blah, and how he wants yadda-yadda. As a result, I feel like I can not go to her to tell her that I'm feeling uncomfortable with the jokes. I've tried ignoring them, I've tried gently suggesting that I'm not comfortable with them (saying that I could report him for sexual harassment), but they haven't stopped. I don't feel like I can go directly to the manager either as he is a moron (eg, he joked about how he wanted to rape one of the food reps). So, does anyone have any experiences they want to share? Advice? I really don't know what to do.
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02-16-2004, 05:48 PM | #2 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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This is a tough subject - most people have common sense, but then there's those idiots who slap a lawsuit on anyone that smiles at them
I had an issue at work once that was rather intense and scary and went on for a few months, but I finally told a friend about it, and she said that it was harassment and to go to my boss. Luckily, I had a good boss, and it stopped instantly. However, your manager sounds like a real jerk (joking about rape?!), so that advice wouldn't work. It might boil down to your having to leave, which is really unfair, but life is sometimes unfair. You might need to MORE than gently talk to him - just repeatedly and firmly but politely (IOW, don't let him have the success of seeing you're really upset) keep saying "This started as a little joke, but it's gone on too long now, and I DO NOT LIKE your comments; PLEASE stop them NOW. Would you like if I made comments to you about [insert sensitive Indonesian topic]? Let's respect each other." Good luck, sorry about the situation
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-16-2004, 07:27 PM | #3 | |
the Shrike
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I'm thinking of moving on anyway - maybe this is the motivation I need. I'm only there so I can make the mortgage payments. I should probably use my degree and get a better job, it's just hard to find one with flexibility like a supermarket type job. *sigh* How bad was your harassment, Rian? Was it just off-colour jokes, or was it more than that? I wonder if a lot of guys realise how vulnerable these things can make a woman feel? I mean, it's not like they have to worry about rape every other minute.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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02-16-2004, 08:43 PM | #4 |
Banned
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Your boss sounds like a creep. I've got class but I'll come back on and tell you about one of my bosses when I get back.
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02-16-2004, 10:16 PM | #5 |
Manic Cardboard-Box Dweller
Join Date: Aug 2002
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I read an article about how women are often molested and such in the military. That seems like one of the worst jobs you could have as a woman... living with a bunch of youngish men who are away from other women for months...
A teacher at my old school molested a friend of mine earlier this school year, I dunno if I've ever mentioned it on entmoot? She isn't the most innocent case though. Apparently he told her he would drive her to a school game or something, but I guess they got sidetracked because he picked up booze at a local store place thingy and they had been smoking pot and such... I don't know if I would want to have my parents know I was smoking pot and drinking booze just to tell on a teacher who tried to stick a hand down my pants... but then again I'm not this friend... the teacher is in jail now.
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02-17-2004, 01:48 AM | #6 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Kind of a weird situation, but it was horrible. If he had actually touched me in the office, I would have known it was wrong, and I think he knew that - that's why he tried to get me to go with him away from work. He tried to get me to play golf with him, too - I shudder to think what could have happened.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-17-2004 at 01:50 AM. |
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02-17-2004, 01:55 AM | #7 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re the military - I worked in military radar, and was often in the company of military guys. Most of them were extremely polite to me, and would instantly curtail their language and topics of conversation when I walked into the room.
Another weird situation - I often worked with foreign military personnel. Once I was the only woman in a meeting, and we had lunch catered in, and I sat next to the top-ranking guy (a colonel in the Korean Air Force). I think he assumed I was provided for his after-hours enjoyment! I had joined the meeting at lunch and had not yet given a technical talk, so I guess he assumed we were providing more than lunch.... his manner was a little free towards me, then he actually told me "you're a very beautiful woman" and kinda leered. I just gave him this shocked and hurt and innocent expression and moved back just a little, and he instantly got the message. His manner changed completely, and became totally polite. Whenever I talked to him, he would stop eating and sit quietly and look at me - the complete gentleman!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-17-2004, 07:11 AM | #8 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
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EEuuurrggg. It gives me the creeps just reading it.
To have something like that invading your work space must be so annoying. And if you kick up a stink you might end up worse off. At the end of the day, it's bullying, even if it's inadvertent, and you are far too good to have to put up with that kind of nonsense. Is there anyone else at work you can talk to? If so, it might be an ally, if not you need to steel yourself. My advice would be to have a proper talk to the Indonesian bloke first. He may well turn out to be like Rian's Korean fella, and just have totally the wrong end of the stick. He may well be mortified that he's making you feel uncomfortable. The sandwich theory works well here: when giving criticism, sandwich it in between two positive things. Say: 1) You think he is a nice person 2) You find these comments unacceptable. Will he consider changing his behaviour? If he doesn't, you will have to take it further. 3) You like working with him and would not like something like this to spoil things. It might be good if you could get a neutral witness in the room for this. I guess you'd have to be prepared to take it all the way to walking out and doing them for sexual harassment. However, imagine how you'll feel about yourself if you stand up to them. Then imagine how you'll feel about yourself if you don't. Your self-esteem is worth far more than any job. Or else, would you like to borrow my Sam's shears for some "pruning"? Best of luck. Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-17-2004 at 07:13 AM. |
02-17-2004, 08:06 AM | #9 | |
founder of the color blue
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Quote:
BoP: I'd say that The Gaffers advice is very good advice, like I said, I've been working with guys almost exclusively for close to a year now, so I cant really offer much, other than telling you what I would do about it (which you probably shouldnt do) Tell him how you feel about it, if it doesnt stop, tell the manager, if that doesnt help, tell the next higher person about the manager, if there are still no results, "accidently" spill some beef blood on your manager, then when you go to grab a towell because you "feel bad", wrap it around the manager's neck and squeeze, all the while muttering your case in her ear, and letting her know that if it isnt resolved immediately, next time it wont be as easy as a towel around the neck (I'm leaning towards barbed wire).
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Well, there it is. |
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02-17-2004, 11:10 AM | #10 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Quote:
This is well beyond harassment though - when you're getting into crossing those age barriers as well as lines of authority... and when it DOES reach the point of physical contact like it did... we're talking about a serious crime, and that teacher is exactly where he belongs when he's in jail. If she hadn't reported him, he could well have done it again to someone else. The fact that there was alcohol and pot involved just indicates to me that he was further orchestrating 'the event' - and hopefully parents would be sympathetic to that, and supportive of their daughter. Obviously, they have some things to address with her, but ultimately, she needs their help right then. |
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02-17-2004, 11:44 AM | #11 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
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i would speak with your manager about it and ask if he intended to bring it up to the employee in question... if he did not, or brushed it off, i would seriously consider bringing the problem to someone in a higher position... typically corporate HR departments for large businesses handle these sort of issues
you may also want to look in an employee handbook if you have one... i believe it is law these days for companies to have a system in place for these kind of issues that said, i can understand just not wanting to deal with it anymore and move on... i have no problem with that either... you should not have to be in this position in the first place and it is their loss if they fail to realize this when they put managers in place
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02-17-2004, 01:41 PM | #12 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Sometimes I had to resort to a very firm verbal response, such as: (level 1) - "I really don't care to hear remarks like that" and if that didn't work, (level 2) - "You know, to me those kinds of personal remarks are really insulting. Please don't say them anymore". But the difference is that I could always walk away to another part of the building. You can't, it appears. Keep us informed. ps - you spelled "color" wrong ... *is jealous of lovely Brit-based spellings*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-17-2004 at 01:43 PM. |
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02-17-2004, 01:49 PM | #13 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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As a parent, I would definitely want to know something like this. Let your parents use their authority to protect you! Speaking for all parents, I'm sorry we're not perfect but we're there for your protection and help. And if your parents tend to overreact, you might want to help them by starting with something like "now PLEASE don't overreact, because then it really makes me NOT want to tell you things, and I know that I should, so you can help me!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-17-2004 at 01:51 PM. |
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02-18-2004, 04:57 PM | #14 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Rian, that story sounds very weird, and uncomfortable, and I don't know how you managed to put up with it for so long, nor how the guy could denigrate himself to such a low level of pathetic-ness. Having said that - it's always awkward dealing with these things, isn't it?
Ruinel, we're still waiting for your story! C'mon, I wanna hear how you shoved the pencil up his proverbial left nostril! Anyway, thinking about it, I don't think I want to make anything formal about this, because the guy is already on two written warnings (both of which were not directly his fault - both involving paperwork not being completed properly with expired products, and it may/may not have been him - he got the warnings along with everyone else slicing meat that day...), and if he got another one, he'd be fired, which seems to me to be a tad unfair. I guess next time he makes a joke that makes me uncomfortable, I'll just have to tell him. Be firm. *sigh* Thanks for the advice!
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02-18-2004, 05:48 PM | #15 |
High King of Númenórë
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Sorry to impede, but everyone needs to learn about Sexual Harrassment through this:
[song and dance] Who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sexual Harassment Panda. Who explains sexual harassment to you and me? Sexual Harassment Panda. "Don't say that! Don't touch there! Don't be nasty!" says the silly bear. He's come to tell you what's right and wrong. Sexual Harassment Panda. Hi, boys and girls. [the class says nothing]
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
02-19-2004, 09:49 AM | #16 |
Manic Cardboard-Box Dweller
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I don't know how hers reacted she doesn't want to talk about the whole thing... plus I'm not allowed to hang out with her anymore because my parents read it in the newspaper... and they don't want me to hang out with someone who drinks and does pot (haha)... eugh MY parents overreacted heh
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02-19-2004, 01:21 PM | #17 | |
Banned
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One summer I got a job working as a secretary for a construction company. In the office was just me and the owner. He was a jerk. Every Friday, he'd go to the bank and pick up a few hundred dollar bills at the bank for the weekend. When he got back, he'd sit his butt down on my desk while I was trying to finish payroll or something and he'd flash the hundreds in my face. Then he'd ask me what I was doing later, if I wanted to make a little extra money. I told him that there wasn't enough money in the world for me to waste my time looking for his 'little friend' with a magnifying glass and a pair of tweezers. Besides, I might slip and pinch it off. The first time I came back at him like that, he just stared at me in astonishment... mouth agape. I suppose he pulled that on everyone he hired, and I was the first one that actually had a come back and put it back in his face. What an @$$. I kept the job for the summer, because I needed the money for school, and it paid fairly decent. For the other days of the week, I had to lie about him not being there, among other things. I was so happy when, at the end of the summer, I could tell him what a total jerk he was. [EDIT: I just wanted to make it clear. This happened to me every friggin' Friday afternoon as long as I worked for that jerk.] Last edited by Ruinel : 02-19-2004 at 01:47 PM. |
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