Arwen's Fate as a mortal

[Beor]

is to die, but my question/discussion point, is, "What exactly happened to Arwen?"

I know she eventually laid down somewhere in Lothlorien and died, and they named a mound after her (which seems to happen alot), but (and this is where the movie has me all fu....messed up) did she age normally? I read it last night, and I couldnt really make out whether she aged, or if she was in sort of limbo between Eldar and Edain.

Also, when ol' Tolkien writes that she could not leave this world tilll all that she had gained was taken, did that mean that dad would have to sail and Aragorn Elessar Estel son of Arathorn would have to die, or is there more there?

Discuss.......now!!

[Valandil]

For Aragorn's sake, I hope she stayed young in appearance. Just imagine when he's in his early 200's... "Eh? What's that sonny? Yes - I know I look 10 times her age, but she's really almost 15 times as old as ME!! Hee-hee!!"

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Beor
Also, when ol' Tolkien writes that she could not leave this world tilll all that she had gained was taken, did that mean that dad would have to sail and Aragorn Elessar Estel son of Arathorn would have to die, or is there more there?

Had to look this up in the book, and I think this passage is what you're referring to:

The Third Age ended thus in victory and hope; and yet grievous among the sorrows of that Age was the parting of Elrond and Arwen, for they were sundered by the Sea and by a doom beyond the end of the world. When the Great Ring was unmade and the Three were shorn of their power, then Elrond grew weary at last and forsook Middle-earth, never to return. But Arwen became as a mortal woman, and yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost.

I think it means that she forsook her life with the Eldar in the West, and chose to be parted from her father, to gain the one she loved. But the gain was only for a brief time, until Aragorn died, and she had to experience the grief of losing him.

My view of Arwen is that she did not age physically. I do not see how her physiology could change only by choosing mortal life. it was her fate after death that was changed, or rather decided, and her opportunity to go West was lost.

Which leads to another interesting question: What if she or her twin bros had been slain before they made their choice. What would their fates have been then? What was the default?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Artanis
Which leads to another interesting question: What if she or her twin bros had been slain before they made their choice. What would their fates have been then? What was the default?

I think their 'default' was Elf, according to their father's choice... unless they themselves chose otherwise.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
I think their 'default' was Elf, according to their father's choice... unless they themselves chose otherwise.

No, I don't think Elrond's choice had anything to say for his children (although it was different for Elros). Partly because mortality is the greater gift, and it would not be right for Elrond to take this gift away from Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir. And partly because of the way Elrond worded himself while speaking to Aragorn about the matter. I get the impression that it was a grace given to them, that Elrond's children should not be separated from their parents by mortality, unless they themselves chose so.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Which leads to another interesting question: What if she or her twin bros had been slain before they made their choice. What would their fates have been then? What was the default?

Were they not considered to be Elven kind until they made their choices?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Were they not considered to be Elven kind until they made their choices?

I think it is not clear what their states were. What Tolkien wrote on the matter could be interpreted in either way. It is said that they lived with the youth of the Eldar as long as Elrond remained in M-E, but that doesn't say anything about their fates, really.

Still Arwen seems to me to have been Elvish in her attitude all her life, even through her marriage. Her bitter farewell with Aragorn when he is dying is revealing much. He is not grieved, for he believes that he will meet her again beyond the world, but she seems to be in despair.

[Beor]

I never really thought they had a choice. The choice was given to Elrond and Elros, whether to be counted among men or elves, and they each chose in turn. The children of Elros obviously didnt have a choice, and I dont think it is any different for the children of Elrond. Like Luthien, Arwen's fate was made by love. Luthien didnt have any mortal in her, but the grace was granted to leave the confines yada yada. I dont think that Arwen is any different, hell, they even look alike (and I think that somewhere it states that Aragorn looks a hell of a lot like Beren). It seems that the classification and fate of a person can be somewhat fluid, like molasses. It can be changed either way, but only under extreme circumstances and for a purpose or whatever.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well Elros' children didn't have a choice because once Elros chose to be mortal, that would make all of his descendants mortal, but Elrond chose to be Elven, but it seems that since he was of both kindreds, but yet chose to be Elven, his children had to be given a choice. That's the way I always saw it anyway.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Valandil
For Aragorn's sake, I hope she stayed young in appearance. Just imagine when he's in his early 200's... "Eh? What's that sonny? Yes - I know I look 10 times her age, but she's really almost 15 times as old as ME!! Hee-hee!!"

that sounds funnier if you do it in a voice of
'old codger with no teeth'!!

eh, yung whipperthnapper?

[Artanis]

Beor, it is explicitly stated several places in LotR and in Letters that all of the children of Elrond were given a choice. But I agree that Arwen's fate was made by love (as Luthien's), if she had not fallen in love with Aragorn there would have been nothing keeping her in Middle-Earth when her father left.

Her likeness with Luthien was both in appearance and in the choice she made, to forsake life in the West in order to be with the man she loved.

[Beor]

Beor, it is explicitly stated several places in LotR and in Letters that all of the children of Elrond were given a choice.

...oh...well *pulls foot from mouth*, in that case, no wonder the Numenorians felt mistreated (but we have discussed that elswhere, I am sure ). I have never read letters, so I missed that.

Still, I think it is bull[explicitave deleted] that they get a choice. A little unfair, eh? Oh well, I probably arent descended from Elros anyway...

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Beor, it is explicitly stated several places in LotR and in Letters that all of the children of Elrond were given a choice. But I agree that Arwen's fate was made by love (as Luthien's), if she had not fallen in love with Aragorn there would have been nothing keeping her in Middle-Earth when her father left.

Her likeness with Luthien was both in appearance and in the choice she made, to forsake life in the West in order to be with the man she loved.

I too agree that all the children of Elrond were given a choice, however, I thought this choice was theirs only for as long as Elrond remained in Middle Earth. Once he left they would become mortal, albeit very long lived ones!

Even without her love of Aragorn, however, it was destined to be an unhappy choice for Arwen. Her parents and grandparents would be living in Valinor, but her brothers would be in Middle Earth since they chose mortality. Thus, the elven line of Elrond would die in Middle-Earth.

[Keith K]

Arwen never understood mortality until the end when her husband died, and she felt her own mortality approaching. Therefore, she probably did not "age" physically. Until the time that Aragorn died she had considered the Numenorians "wicked fools". Facing her own death she achieved understanding of the inner turmoil that death presents to mortals. She found it to be a "bitter" pill to swallow. In begging her husband to linger and not sleep she finally saw the reason for the fall of the Numenorians and understood with "pity" the choices some of them made. Even that of Ar-Pharazon I would wager.

[Nerdanel]

Death was a gift to men from Eru, wasn't it? As I've understood, most elves understood this. Didn't Arwen?

(I'm sorry, but it's a long time ago I read LotR. When Arwen chose to become mortal, did that mean that her fate was the fate of men and thus the same as Aragorns?)

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Nerdanel
(I'm sorry, but it's a long time ago I read LotR. When Arwen chose to become mortal, did that mean that her fate was the fate of men and thus the same as Aragorns?)

That's how I understand it - which is why it was so hard on Elrond. By her choice, he was losing her for both that life AND the next... possibly losing her forever (unless sometime in the Great Beyond, the spirits of Men and Elves would be united... ).

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Elanor the Fair
I too agree that all the children of Elrond were given a choice, however, I thought this choice was theirs only for as long as Elrond remained in Middle Earth. Once he left they would become mortal, albeit very long lived ones!

Even without her love of Aragorn, however, it was destined to be an unhappy choice for Arwen. Her parents and grandparents would be living in Valinor, but her brothers would be in Middle Earth since they chose mortality. Thus, the elven line of Elrond would die in Middle-Earth.

It is not said anywhere that Elladan and Elrohir chose mortality. We do not know their choice.
Letter #153 says:

The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was CelebrÃ*an dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

I'd like to think that Elladan and Elrohir stayed in M-E as long as Aragorn and their sister still lived, and then passed over sea to be reunited with their parents.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally posted by Artanis
It is not said anywhere that Elladan and Elrohir chose mortality. We do not know their choice.
Letter #153 says:I'd like to think that Elladan and Elrohir stayed in M-E as long as Aragorn and their sister still lived, and then passed over sea to be reunited with their parents.

There are certainly many contradictions and much of what is written is open to interpretation. I based my assumptions on a passage in the appendices...

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world: or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

I assumed that when Elrond departed from Middle-earth he had passed from "the circles of the world" and therefore, by default, his children became mortal. I understand, however, that this could be open to debate.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I've just got one question about this. When elves choose mortality do their ears stay the same or become like men's?

It's just something that's been bugging me.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I've just got one question about this. When elves choose mortality do their ears stay the same or become like men's?

It's just something that's been bugging me.

Hehe, funny question that of course leads us in the renowned and remarkable question of
Have the elves pointy ears?
There's a lot of discussion about that topic and it is not settled question...

But if we suppose that they have pointy ears, then my response would be that they would remain the same.

... I'm not so sure about the light of their eyes and hair though