Muslims

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
But it comes down to this - someone has to be brave and stop the cycle of violence. Someone has to say "I am not doing this anymore." Will they suffer for it? Probably. Nobody would say that the followers of Gandhi had an easy time, or that they didn't suffer.

How would the world have conquered Hitler and the Japanese Empire by just saying "we're not going to do this anymore"? As I said - sometimes force has to be used to bring about a greater peace. We went into Bosnia as I have said in previous posts - Meloshivic didn't have wmd, and didn' attack another country - yet Europe and US went in there to end the bloodshed. Meloshevic is another one who would not have backed down through negotiations.

As for the United States being the policemen of the world - this can be done in a non-violent way as well as a violent one. We control such a huge percentage of the world economy that it could easily be used as leverage, and if we are patient enough, would work as well as violence.

Our control over the world economy can be used as leverage with our trading partners. But the Middle East is basically only in one direction. They have the western world in their grasp because they control the majority of the oil that goes to Europe and Japan and to a lesser extent America. If they decided to restrict production - we will have an economic disaster on our hands.

I think there has to be a balance between military and diplomacy. I feel we ran out of diplomacy with Hussein. We use diplomacy with Iran and we are forced to with North Korea and other countries. But sometimes - it's a time to say - diplomacy is not going to work and it's time to take action.

Okay - you posted somethings in the post above that may make some of my points mute. Anyway - I do think that the war in Iraq was worth it - and it will be proved to have been worth it in the future. Even Churchill was hated before World War II because the world did not share his fear of Hitler. Today we know he was right all along and if the world listened to him - millions upon millions of people could have been saved and a great war would have been avoided.

[Percy Weasley]

I do think that the war in Iraq was worth it - and it will be proved to have been worth it in the future.

And I do hope that you are right, honestly. The idea of all those people dying for nothing rends my heart in two.

I'm afraid I may have to end this conversation tonight, it is getting late, and I am starting to get overly sentimental, as I am bound to do this time of night.

I also have an 8:30 grammar class...

[Falagar]

It is amazing. Why don't we just call the nazi and white supremicists and the Germany of WWII - frigtened, frustrated, desperate and brainwashed? I see NO difference in the FANATICAL Islam that so many people teach and the Nazi propaganda machine. One was done with flags, speeches, parades, and youth camps and the other is just done through a religion - through the Mosques and schools. No one would say they are "sad" about Hitler or feel sorry for his warped since of duty or so called "hurt" that caused him to exterminate millions of people during World War II.

Because they weren't afraid of anything, nor were they desperate. They had nothing to fear, and no reason to feel desperate. That is a big difference.

How would the world have conquered Hitler and the Japanese Empire by just saying "we're not going to do this anymore"? As I said - sometimes force has to be used to bring about a greater peace. We went into Bosnia as I have said in previous posts - Meloshivic didn't have wmd, and didn' attack another country - yet Europe and US went in there to end the bloodshed. Meloshevic is another one who would not have backed down through negotiations.

In the case of Hitler he had a bigger army than almost anyone else and hit people without them hitting at all.

I think there has to be a balance between military and diplomacy. I feel we ran out of diplomacy with Hussein. We use diplomacy with Iran and we are forced to with North Korea and other countries. But sometimes - it's a time to say - diplomacy is not going to work and it's time to take action.

And when action doesn't work?

Okay - you posted somethings in the post above that may make some of my points mute. Anyway - I do think that the war in Iraq was worth it - and it will be proved to have been worth it in the future. Even Churchill was hated before World War II because the world did not share his fear of Hitler. Today we know he was right all along and if the world listened to him - millions upon millions of people could have been saved and a great war would have been avoided.

On Hussein, yes I think it was a good thing to get rid of him. But I don't think he was dangerous to anyone else than his people.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Nomatter what anybody says Falagar, you're a cool dude.

Thanks!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I must, respectfully, disagree with this.

While I think that the suicide attacks are certainly wrong, and to be condemned by all compassionate human beings on both sides of the issue, these events do not take place in a vacuum. These people, who find their current situation terrible enough that they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in what they consider a war for their way of life, are not "evil." To call either side "evil" is to grossly simplify a situation that is complicated beyond imagining, and to attempt to put it into neat little sides of "good" and "evil" when such lables do not fit.What are they, then?

Desperate.

Frustrated.

Caught in a situation that they see as hopeless, and unable to find any way out other than to give their lives to the cause.
[...]
But I also think it is incredibly naive of Americans to assume that since these people attacked us, they must be "evil." Their actions were evil, that is true. There is no excuse whatsoever for the taking of human life to prove a point.

I am not American. I am from Israel.

I wouldn't say I'm 'naive', because I knew about the terror bombs since I was born, in the first 'Intifada' (the name of these wars [israel vs. palestines] in arabic.).

Then how would you define an 'evil man'? Simply, a man who acts evilly. They (the terrorists) are also desperate and frustrated, of course. Because they are poor - and they are poor because of the war they started. They are also desperate because many people were killed - and that's understandable. And yet they can't look for revenge. They started this situation, and they are the only ones who can stop it. If they would be patiente, and with less urge to revenge the deaths of the terrorists.

If they were on "our" side, we might even consider them to be noble, like Nathan Hale, or any of the other martyrs who have lived through history.

There are no sides in murdering innocent people.

I wish to state again, this does not validate the actions of Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, or those we would classify as terrorists. Life is sacred, and there are other ways to make a point. But these people are not "evil." They are frightened, frustrated, desperate and brainwashed individuals who believe they can change the world by doing these things. It is sad to me that such passion and dedication can not be channeled into productive instead of destructive avenues.

I didn't say all the people are evil. Only the terrorists. And, btw, the first terrorists didn't do it becuase they are frustrated. They didn't do it for revenge. They even didn't do it because they were poor, 'cause they had jobs back then. They did it because they wanted to kill israelis.

But the war itself saddens me as well. All of the men who died on both sides of the conflict, and all of those who are still dying today...all of the hatred created, all of the sorrow, all of the misery and suffering that removing Saddam created...is it really worth it? I know you will say yes, it is, and perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. I don't know. I don't claim to know all the answers. All I know is that this whole situation has made me very, very sad.

I think nobody can answer you properly except the iraqis themselves. We don't know how much they used to suffer - and don't know how much they suffered during the war and after it.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I am not American. I am from Israel.

I wouldn't say I'm 'naive', because I knew about the terror bombs since I was born, in the first 'Intifada' (the name of these wars [israel vs. palestines] in arabic.).

Then how would you define an 'evil man'? Simply, a man who acts evilly. They (the terrorists) are also desperate and frustrated, of course. Because they are poor - and they are poor because of the war they started. They are also desperate because many people were killed - and that's understandable. And yet they can't look for revenge. They started this situation, and they are the only ones who can stop it. If they would be patiente, and with less urge to revenge the deaths of the terrorists.

I would define an 'evil man' as one that acts evil without having any reasons to do so and knows that his actions are evil and will hurt many innocent.

There are no sides in murdering innocent people.

True, and it has been done by both sides. Try this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1395080.stm

I didn't say all the people are evil. Only the terrorists. And, btw, the first terrorists didn't do it becuase they are frustrated. They didn't do it for revenge. They even didn't do it because they were poor, 'cause they had jobs back then. They did it because they wanted to kill israelis.

I don't know if that's true, I don't know what was in the minds of the Palestinians in that time - and we can't say that it is only because they wanted to kill the palestinians.

[Percy Weasley]

I am not American. I am from Israel.

I wouldn't say I'm 'naive', because I knew about the terror bombs since I was born, in the first 'Intifada' (the name of these wars [israel vs. palestines] in arabic.).

Then how would you define an 'evil man'? Simply, a man who acts evilly. They (the terrorists) are also desperate and frustrated, of course. Because they are poor - and they are poor because of the war they started. They are also desperate because many people were killed - and that's understandable. And yet they can't look for revenge. They started this situation, and they are the only ones who can stop it. If they would be patiente, and with less urge to revenge the deaths of the terrorists.

In those parts referring to Americans, then, I was not referring to you. That does not make my points any less valid to Americans, however.

Quite simply, I do not believe there are such things as "evil" men. Call that naive or overly idealistic, but I do not believe in "evil." I believe that the light of god [and this is purposely uncapitalized] exists in everyone, and that everyone, no matter how terrible their actions, has some good in them.

There are no sides in murdering innocent people.

Hence the reason "our" was put in italics.

I would like to say, however, that innocent peple have been killed on both the Israeli and the Palestinian sides of this conflict, and that I find it despicable when Israelis claim to be the innocent victims. As you stated, there is very little innocence left in the region.

I would like to state for the record that I do not take sides in this conflict. I am neither Jewish, Christian, nor Muslim, and I refuse to side in Religious wars. I simply try to look at all sides, for I am sure that the truth (and the answers) is somewhere between the rhetoric of both sides.

[Sween]

The answer is quite simply not a lot. JD please remove your head from your ass and acctually look at what a thread is about before going off on one! Everyone else stop egging him on

We seem to be unable to disconnect the word Muslim with these words Terrorist, Palestine, Middle East. All valaid points but im sure a whole religion/race does not want to be judged upon the actions of a tiny minority! I mean i dont want to be judge by any relgion because i hate them all equally (well buddism not so much a relgion just a way to live your life so thats allright) but i wouldnt like to be judge by the white man because the white man has done some truely terriable things.

Admitally the middle east is where in my opinion the old and the new world come together so theres allways gonna be problems. But we have allways had this problem havent we. As people have said we had it in Hittlers day a whole race after the first war was so poverty stricken and helpless it allowed racism to enter in and give people an easy option. Its happened through out history, the crusuades (same bloody part of the world as well)! How did these conflicts get reslved of old? A long and bloody war everytime there must be a better way to solve our problems? But whats happening now i think is getting bad and i think can only get worse

Is there any wonder though with all this connection of Muslims with bad and problems that they dont care for us much. No matter who started it (oh its like the whole Elves and Dwarves thing ) one side need to be the bigger person and get over it for the sake of all.

[Percy Weasley]

No matter who started it (oh its like the whole Elves and Dwarves thing ) one side need to be the bigger person and get over it for the sake of all.

These are my sentiments exactly. For this confict to end, one side or the other is going to have to swallow their pride and refuse to respond to the violence. One side must lay down their arms and refuse to fight anymore. That is the only way that this is going to end. If this war continues on with endless attacks and reciprocal bombings, then it will continue on ad nauseum into the lives of our children and grandchildren.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
These are my sentiments exactly. For this confict to end, one side or the other is going to have to swallow their pride and refuse to respond to the violence. One side must lay down their arms and refuse to fight anymore. That is the only way that this is going to end. If this war continues on with endless attacks and reciprocal bombings, then it will continue on ad nauseum into the lives of our children and grandchildren.

That was my point also.

[Valandil]

Some recent posts discussing whether terrorists are "evil" miss the point. No matter how far someone falls, they retain the capacity to do good - and no matter how high someone rises, they still retain the capacity to do evil. Evil and good are best used to define someone's actions, rather than the person themselves. What is more accurate, I think is that many involved in the conflict in the Middle East are consumed by hatred - and they act out of hatred. It has some to do with their respective religions, some with race, much over the simple issue of land possession.

In the Israeli-Palestinian arena, there IS much hatred and wrong on BOTH sides. However, I'm more sympathetic to the Israelis. The occupied territories were occupied in a war they won (when attacked). It became necessary to retain those territories as a buffer zone because other Arab states and / or terrorist groups (and the lines here are often blurred or overlapping) used border areas to lob in mortar shells, etc. More recently, they've made concessions and have tried to move the peace process forward - and appease the Palestinians with land (read Kiplings' "The Danegeld" - it's a short poem) - but all they get is a wave of suicide bombings which as a nation, they must stop in order to protect their people. Sometimes they get out of line in doing that, but they show some restraint as well.

Islam as a whole has some serious internal problems to deal with if it wants to be taken seriously in our world for much longer. It needs to unequivocally reject all terrorism. It must stop preaching and teaching hatred for non-Muslims in ANY of its mosques and schools - or sanction those who do so. It must stop raising money for terrorist organizations - or to "reward" families of suicide / homicide bombers - which they call martyrs.

And look how fundamentalist Islam has redefined the very word "martyr". In the Christian sense, a martyr submits to death at the hands of his enemies, for love of the very ones who take his life. In today's Muslim viewpoint, a martyr is one who decides and acts to take his own life and bring some enemies along with him, out of hatred for those he kills. What a reversal!

I too will depart from this thread... for a couple reasons. First, I don't know if it's really taking us anywhere. It strikes me as two neighbors who keep turning up their own stereos to be able to hear what they're playing and not have to hear what the neighbor is playing (also analogous to many of the arguments actually going on IN the Middle East). The second is, I just can't devote the time to posting on this thread that some of you do - and therefore can't keep up with the overwhelming amount of material. Not why I joined the Moot anyway!

On the other hand, Jerseydevil made some comments in his last response to me that I feel I need to address. As SGH indicated, we were getting off-topic - so I will transfer that discussion to the "offshoot of religion" (or however exactly it's entitled - would that be the appropriate place SGH?) - but LATER... right now I'm managing a sleepless 1-year-old to placate my sleep-deprived wife.



Meanwhile, if anyone else needs something lighter, check out the song I wrote under the LOTR books forum. Think I'll spend more time in the Tolkien section... "the play in the valley is a bit rough for me" (paraphrase)

[Falagar]

Islam as a whole has some serious internal problems to deal with if it wants to be taken seriously in our world for much longer. It needs to unequivocally reject all terrorism. It must stop preaching and teaching hatred for non-Muslims in ANY of its mosques and schools - or sanction those who do so. It must stop raising money for terrorist organizations - or to "reward" families of suicide / homicide bombers - which they call martyrs.

Not all Muslims preach hatred, not all Muslims give money to terrorists. We can't accuse the majority of Muslims for something a minority does. In my opinion, Islam is no worse than Christianity, Judaism or any other religion.

[Valandil]

To clarify, the majority MUST exert some control over that minority - from WITHIN Islam - or at least outright reject what they preach. But in Islam, the majority is hesitant to do so. It has to be from within - because the rest of us can't do that from without. THAT'S what I was saying.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Valandil
Sigh

if I really have to clarify, the majority MUST exert some control over that minority - from WITHIN Islam - or at least outright reject what they preach. But in Islam, the majority is hesitant to do so. It has to be from within - because the rest of us can't do that from without. THAT'S what I was saying. Was it not clear enough for you?

I have heard of several leaders condemning the attacks. This site has a list: http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

[Sween]

Originally posted by Valandil
To clarify, the majority MUST exert some control over that minority - from WITHIN Islam - or at least outright reject what they preach. But in Islam, the majority is hesitant to do so. It has to be from within - because the rest of us can't do that from without. THAT'S what I was saying.

Very true but the same can be said for all relgions! I deplor the way the IRA and such groups hide behind religion so they have an excuss to do great evil. And i hate our government for allowing them have elected officials in the government! Its kinda ironic that America biggest suporter allows terroriust to walk free and stand for government!

As for Islam it would be good to see some activity from there officials (do they have a pope kinda guy?) to say no this isnt on! But i have little hope this would happen/work

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Falagar

I would define an 'evil man' as one that acts evil without having any reasons to do so and knows that his actions are evil and will hurt many innocent.

So they do have a reason - but not a very good one.

True, and it has been done by both sides. Try this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/1395080.stm

That war was 20 years ago, and everyone knows he made very big mistakes. But if Belgium can't do anything to Sharon.
I've never said Sharon is pure; but it doesn't connect to this conflict. That's not the reason palestinians suicide.

I would like to say, however, that innocent peple have been killed on both the Israeli and the Palestinian sides of this conflict, and that I find it despicable when Israelis claim to be the innocent victims. As you stated, there is very little innocence left in the region.

I didn't mean that the only innocent people in Middle East is us, I claim that we have no intention to kill innocent people. But in a war innocent people die, even if they are not the target.

We seem to be unable to disconnect the word Muslim with these words Terrorist, Palestine, Middle East. All valaid points but im sure a whole religion/race does not want to be judged upon the actions of a tiny minority! I mean i dont want to be judge by any relgion because i hate them all equally (well buddism not so much a relgion just a way to live your life so thats allright) but i wouldnt like to be judge by the white man because the white man has done some truely terriable things.

That is right; there are muslims without any connection to the area. Again nobody judged the muslims.
But many islamic countries do support the palestinians - Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc..

I have heard of several leaders condemning the attacks. This site has a list: http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

I doesn't matter if they condemn the attack, when they keep encouraging terrorists to suicide. Arafat always condemn the attacks. It doesn't mean he doesn't encourage terrorists.

As for Islam it would be good to see some activity from there officials (do they have a pope kinda guy?) to say no this isnt on! But i have little hope this would happen/work

True. I do not believe it will happen too. It is not allowed in these countries - to speak out in public against the goverment. It's an immediate death punishment.

[HOBBIT]

Originally posted by Artanis
I believe jihad, holy war, is understood in different ways by muslims. It could be
- riot against all human made institutions, a revolution all over the world, accepting only the rule of God. (Stated by Sayyid Qubt, one of the founders of political islam)
- War against all apostate muslim state leaders and their regimes (the view of radical islamists).
- Martyrdom: To give your life in the war to (re)establish the islamic state, or the rule of God, as a noble expression of a devoted obedience to God.

Personally I have huge problems with this part of islam, since it is against the right of all humans to religious freedom. But I do not think jihad is a central part of the religion of muslims living in peaceful parts of the world, where they've got freedom of religion and there are no dictatorship.

In school now all the teachers are saying that Jihad is not a holy war and has nothing to with war...im like ...what????

All things you listed have to do wtih war, etc.

I forget what a teachers have said it is, but it was not that.

If they want to teach us about Islam, they should reall do it instead of making up stuff.

Why do all these religious fanatics seem to be a majority in the Arab world?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
The answer is quite simply not a lot. JD please remove your head from your ass and acctually look at what a thread is about before going off on one!

Sween - you get your head out of your ass and look at my eariler posts. I answered your initial question on Muslims and my feelings toward them in general. The terrorists and everything else IS part of the muslim question. You seem to want to only talk about "good" muslims - if that's the case - the discussion is finished. I have nothing against "good peaceful Muslims". Fini.

[edit] To answer your question in your heading - as for going off on the American versus the world - that was brought about because your fellow Europeans didn't like a comment I made here or there to back up a point I made.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Falagar
Not all Muslims preach hatred, not all Muslims give money to terrorists. We can't accuse the majority of Muslims for something a minority does. In my opinion, Islam is no worse than Christianity, Judaism or any other religion.

Of course Islam is no worse - but the MOST vocal Mosques in the Middle East - as well as MANY in the West preach DEATH. This is where you sween have you head up your ass. You want to ignore this.

You said HItler had a large army in you previous post. How do you know? I woudl say only that Hitler had a CONVENTIONAL army. I think the problem is - Eurpeans and a lot of the rest of the world - don't want to look at the war against terror as a war - beause it's not conventional. It's not like the wars before. It's not country against country.

The terrorists are in the dark - they're in England, they're in America, they're in Australia. They're not ONLY in the Middle East. They just don't use the tanks and guns of a "normal" army. They don't have a country. They are fighting for an idea and belief, which is that anyone who does NOT follow true Islam - deserves death. This to me is NO different than Hitler during WWII.

Also - Falagar - of course there are many leaders who condemn the attacks. But A LOT of them have been heard to condemn the attacks in English - only to support them in Arabic. If people are right and only the minority support terrorism - then as
Valandil said - the majority needs to STAND UP and put down the MINORITY. Sorry - but this is NOT happening. You say they want peace - well where are they?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
These are my sentiments exactly. For this confict to end, one side or the other is going to have to swallow their pride and refuse to respond to the violence. One side must lay down their arms and refuse to fight anymore. That is the only way that this is going to end. If this war continues on with endless attacks and reciprocal bombings, then it will continue on ad nauseum into the lives of our children and grandchildren.

And when laying down your arms only brings more bombings and killings - as was DEMONSTRATED when israel did start to dismantle the settlements and checkpoints?

I guess Europe should have just laid down their arms during World War II.