Egypt is the origin of Christianity, Judaism & Islam

[Spock]

...."when you assume you make an ass of u and me" Tony Randall, The Odd Couple

[The Telcontarion]

Spock

You are right, but I guess I can't be perfect, my friend. But making a mistake without acknowledging it, now that is the spark from which many fires spring.

[Spock]

[The Telcontarion]

Earnil, you said:

Elfhelm, thanks for digging up that article by de Greef, it's always interesting to hear from the opposite party.

I would seriously recommend the link below for the entire debate of which de Greef's comments, were only a part.

http://egyptologist.org/discus/messa...tml?1027386079

It is the same link I have been asking Elfhelm to repost for some time now; So all may see how much the debate "supported his ideas" as he claims.

[Count Comfect]

From the first post in that debate you linked to, Telcontarian:

The AE’s offered their language only one name in one word. Fortunately, it is reported in nearly full alphabetic form as:

[G29-N35-N5] = ba-n = ba-ya-n = al-bayan = albayan = the rhetoric.

This very important word is reported in the Worterbuch Vol. I p.411 as “ba-n-r3” without any translation. It is also reported in some other forms.

"Al-" meaning "the" is an Arabic prefix. Al-bayan means "the rhetoric" in Arabic.

The root word ‘ban’ is also a colloquial Egyptian word with all these meanings. For example, there is a popular Egyptian song says:

“ban 3alaya Hobo min awwel ma ban”

This is later in the same post; this song is in Arabic.

I think this is pretty clear evidence that he is indeed trying to translate hieroglyphics as Arabic, instead of as their own language, as was suggested upthread. Yet they are not the same language - Arabic only comes into Egypt after the 600s AD.

[The Telcontarion]

If what you say is true, it is the most compelling arguement posted by anyone on this site, against the claims of Alsaadawi.

However two things, I have nothing but your word that al is purely an arabic word and this goes for the song as well. I need proof as in references.

Also, as you can see, his site, though it is made so that it can be read for the most part by the english speaking, it is also made for arabic apeaking peoples. My point being is this:

the translation:

[G29-N35-N5] = ba-n = ba-ya-n = al-bayan = albayan = the rhetoric.

Isn't he just translating bayan into arabic as albayan, as he has done for the english version, which is the rhetoric. Alsaadawi wouldn't just give the english meaning, the translation before the phrase;"the rhetoric," I believe is simply the arabic version, which is, "albayan."

[Count Comfect]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

However two things, I have nothing but your word that al is purely an arabic word and this goes for the song as well. I need proof as in references.

Look it up yourself. Seriously - look up the word "the" (which is what "al" means) in any online English-Arabic dictionary. Then look up "the" in a Coptic-English dictionary (Coptic being a language that was present in Egypt before Arabic, its immediate precursor, I believe). A decent Coptic lexicon is

http://mycopticchurch.com/coptic/lexicon.asp

Arabic ones aren't hard to find if you Google.

You'll find that the prefix "al-" meaning "the" is Arabic, but the prefix meaning "the" in Coptic is "p" or "pe."

As for the song, you could translate it word for word (although that 3 is clearly some symbol that the ASCII code couldn't handle). But it is clearly in Arabic, because it is a contemporary Egyptian song. And the language spoken in contemporary Egypt is Arabic. Has been for over a thousand years.

Also, as you can see, his site, though it is made so that it can be read for the most part by the english speaking, it is also made for arabic apeaking peoples. My point being is this:

the translation:

[G29-N35-N5] = ba-n = ba-ya-n = al-bayan = albayan = the rhetoric.

Isn't he just translating bayan into arabic as albayan, as he has done for the english version, which is the rhetoric. Alsaadawi wouldn't just give the english meaning, the translation before the phrase;"the rhetoric," I believe is simply the arabic version, which is, "albayan."

First, the site he is posting this on is not a site for Arabic readers. It is a site for English readers. All information on the site is in English only. So regardless of what he uses on his own site, a preliminary translation in English on this site would be pointless.

Second, he makes no preliminary translation. He goes directly into the phonemes of the Arabic translation - directly to "ba-n" (which he then expands to bayan). If he were making two translations as you propose, he would have some other phoneme first; instead he jumps straight to Arabic. His assumption is that the phonetic structure of Ancient Egyptian must be the same as that of Arabic, because Arabic is what is spoken in Egypt now; he ignores the millenia of change, especially the sharp break that came with the Muslim conquest of Egypt.

[BeardofPants]

This is a link to the Gardiner sign list : http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/gardner0.htm
A link to a dictionary : http://www.hieroglyphs.net/0301/cgi/...y=tr&ch=A&cs=1

Transliteration of G29-N35-N5 is : bA.n.re

bA = 'animation' or 'manifestation' / (soul)

n = to/for/of

re = Re (or Ra)

lit trans. 'Soul of Re' (however, you DO need to see the context of the hieroglyphs to provide a proper translation).

With regards to the egyptian languages, one should remember that the evolution is thus :

Archaic Egyptian -> Old Egyptian -> Middle Egyptian - Late Egyptian -> Demotic -> Coptic (with the extinction of the spoken language occurring when Coptic (with a modified greek script) died out and was replaced by Arabic)

From Wikipedia.com

Coptic is the most recent phase of ancient Egyptian. It is the direct descendant of the ancient language written in Egyptian hieroglyphic, hieratic, and demotic scripts. The Coptic alphabet is a slightly modified form of the Greek alphabet, with some letters (which vary from dialect to dialect) deriving from demotic. As a living language of daily conversation, Coptic flourished from ca. 200 to 1100. The last record of its being spoken was during the 17th century. Coptic survives today as the liturgical language of the Coptic Orthodox Church. Egyptian Arabic is the spoken and national language of Egypt today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_language


From Wikipedia.com :

Written records of the ancient Egyptian language have been dated from about 3200 BC. Egyptian is part of the Afro-Asiatic group of languages and is related to Berber and Semitic (languages such as Arabic, Amharic,Tigrinya and Hebrew). The language survived until the 5th century AD in the form of Demotic and until the Middle Ages in the form of Coptic. Thus it had a lifespan of over four millennia. Egyptian is one of the oldest recorded languages known.
The national language of modern day Egypt is Egyptian Arabic, which gradually replaced Egyptian and its descendant, the Coptic language, as the language of daily life in the centuries after Egypt was conquered by Arab Muslims. Coptic is still used as a liturgical language in the Coptic Church.

...

Old, Middle, and Late Egyptian were all written using hieroglyphs and hieratic. Demotic was written using a script derived from hieratic; its appearance is vaguely similar to modern Arabic script and is also written from right to left (although the two are not related). Coptic is written using the Coptic alphabet, a modified form of the Greek alphabet with a number of symbols borrowed from Demotic for sounds that did not occur in Ancient Greek.
Arabic gradually replaced spoken Coptic after the Arabian invasion in the seventh century, though Arabic was the language of the Muslim political administration soon thereafter.

From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language

An egyptian proverb of sorts : n rx.n=tw mAa.t r grg - One (who) can not distinguish truth from falsehood!

[The Telcontarion]

**flaming is not permitted**

[BeardofPants]

Sorry ....**personal attack edited by MOD**, but I am of course free to post where I like on this board. ::shrug:: In any case, I've made my points and backed them up. ****please keep a civil debate*****

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

...... more study, I say.

**Please NO DRUG REFERENCES on a PG-13 Board***Mod edited
LOL!

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telcontarion
However two things, I have nothing but your word that al is purely an arabic word and this goes for the song as well. I need proof as in references.

Look it up yourself. Seriously - look up the word "the" (which is what "al" means) in any online English-Arabic dictionary. Then look up "the" in a Coptic-English dictionary (Coptic being a language that was present in Egypt before Arabic, its immediate precursor, I believe). A decent Coptic lexicon is

http://mycopticchurch.com/coptic/lexicon.asp

Arabic ones aren't hard to find if you Google.

You'll find that the prefix "al-" meaning "the" is Arabic, but the prefix meaning "the" in Coptic is "p" or "pe."

As for the song, you could translate it word for word (although that 3 is clearly some symbol that the ASCII code couldn't handle). But it is clearly in Arabic, because it is a contemporary Egyptian song. And the language spoken in contemporary Egypt is Arabic. Has been for over a thousand years.

Quote:
Also, as you can see, his site, though it is made so that it can be read for the most part by the english speaking, it is also made for arabic apeaking peoples. My point being is this:

the translation:

[G29-N35-N5] = ba-n = ba-ya-n = al-bayan = albayan = the rhetoric.

Isn't he just translating bayan into arabic as albayan, as he has done for the english version, which is the rhetoric. Alsaadawi wouldn't just give the english meaning, the translation before the phrase;"the rhetoric," I believe is simply the arabic version, which is, "albayan."


First, the site he is posting this on is not a site for Arabic readers. It is a site for English readers. All information on the site is in English only. So regardless of what he uses on his own site, a preliminary translation in English on this site would be pointless.

Second, he makes no preliminary translation. He goes directly into the phonemes of the Arabic translation - directly to "ba-n" (which he then expands to bayan). If he were making two translations as you propose, he would have some other phoneme first; instead he jumps straight to Arabic. His assumption is that the phonetic structure of Ancient Egyptian must be the same as that of Arabic, because Arabic is what is spoken in Egypt now; he ignores the millenia of change, especially the sharp break that came with the Muslim conquest of Egypt.
__________________
The angry thrones and bitter monuments
Of highblown princes of our worldly realms
Are never lasting in the longer span
That makes up life on earth for all of man.

Sonnets

Again I have to say, you make a compelling argument.

There are problems that come up again though. I have noticed that the rhetoric translation you provided, is taken from the link that I provided earlier. On that debate forum, Alsaadawi provided other translations as well, which were directly into english. Further more, on this site he was debating professional egyotogists, none made the points you have brought up. Infact, see below:

Ossama Alsaadawi
The root word ‘ban’ is also a colloquial Egyptian word with all these meanings. For example, there is a popular Egyptian song says:

“ban 3alaya Hobo min awwel ma ban”

It means, “his love appeared on me when he showed up”

So you see, it is hard to reconsile what you have said with what has already been debated. The root ban is egyptian, so now my reply to your original post seems to be right on the money.

[The Telcontarion]

This is what was said right after the post about the translation you have given:

Fred Lundberg (195.92.67.76)
Posted on Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:42 pm:
Dear Ossama,
Its good to here you about again, both here & Peters new site.
As you know ive read Heiroglyphic roots & as you also know you will have to compete with the established & respected norm here.Nothing wrong in that.However It would be constructive if the respected here could have a full discussion too what your arab world books & government supporters are saying,lets just look,looking/exploring is harmless.
AB,Ossama was chastised here before for the Mary is Isis bit in particular but we are different nations speaking things in different ways & might sometimes need some human temperance to understand a distant global brothers real meaning to his word.
For all his published works & time it could be an incredible opportunity.

Best to all,
Fred Lundberg
P.S. Ossama did you ever translate "Pharaohs & Astronomy"? (To english)

Rick (24.25.208.10)
Posted on Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 01:13 am:
Fred in Ossama's defense, I think he's onto something with the Isis and Mary theory. During an offline discussion he sent me a pix of Isis suckling Horus and the motif was indentical to the future Mary and Jesus poses that we westerners know so well. In addition seeing how the Egyptian Coptic church is still considered to be the oldest christian churh in the world it would be reasonable to assume that there would be AE influences in it, and lo and behold there are! Finally he sent me a very brief history of the rise of the Coptic church and it's conflicts with Rome, that confirmed (or strengthened it), one of my pet theories, that the rise of the Christian church was far more complex than that presented in The Acts.

Anyhow it's good to see Ossama, with his unique perspective, of AE heiroglyphs back again.

This last by the user rick, is exactly what had comvinced me through studying art history in class. And then learning about christianity, not just in egypt, but about the surrounding countries which have always been a great part of egyptian history and what I have come to understand as being culturely the same, in people, racial and historical. Namely Ethopia, Somalia and Sudan.

[The Telcontarion]

Namely Ethopia, Somalia and Sudan.

I have always been confused about that as well, as I have had many people argue with me about the racial make up of egypt. Of all the countries in Africa egypt could not have been of a different historical and racial make than the rest of africa, especially ethiopia, Somalia and Sudan. Of the latter three no one will argue that these are black africans. This in itself will be a thread that I intend to start, I would very much like to hear my fellow mooters take on that issue.

[Spock]

ooooooooooo gawd, not another charged thread

[Elfhelm]

Actually, the old language that is closest to ancient Egyptian is Nubian, and it is not a written language, according to my Egyuptian co-worker. Her father speaks Nubian. It has changed a lot over the last few THOUSAND years, and would be unrecognizable to an Ancient Egyptian.

[BeardofPants]

Dude, that 'flame' (bub) you edited out is what wolverine calls kitty in the x-men. It's a pet name not a flame. FYI.

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Dude, that 'flame' (bub) you edited out is what wolverine calls kitty in the x-men. It's a pet name not a flame. FYI.

Argh! He's s'posed to call Jubilee that!

Where I wrote Egyuptian above, assume I hit two keys at once. Sawwy...

[ElrondAragornGandalf]

When people cease to believe in God they don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything

-G.K. Chesterton

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Listen, I posted it because I think it is interesting and important, especially to tolkienites. Tolkien studied egyptian language extensively, to the point that the numenorean language is based on it. Eg. Elendil's name like any numenorean name is spelled only with the constanants, LNL in feanorion characters of course. This is exactly how the egyptian names are written. Infact the whole story of numenore is very simular to that of egypt, but subsituting egypt with a land mass like similar to atlantis.

The similarities do not end there, numenorians were given their land as a reward and Earindils son was king, I believe after the flood the egypt was given to noahs discendants as a reward for being loyal to god.

It always seemed to me as a child that gods children where always punished and houseless, it just didn't make sense; I guest that's why I became an athiest, none of it made sense, now it does. Like someone wanted it to seem there is always hardship and pain when you follow god. Now I know that we are being lied to, they were rewarded with egypt not made slaves. They were not warlike yet the "corrupters" (you hear this term alot on the site) twisted everything making the egytptians pagan god worshippers and slavers; don't you think that the devil would do this if what I say is true. Morgoth spread lies so that those who should be allies would be enemies, turning brother against brother. He was even spreading lies about the valar to the eldar in the beggining so they would not trust them. Please think. Why would the devil want us to recognize egypt for what it is. The greatest trick he ever played is to convince the world he does not exist; that's why I am not an athiest anymore, I am completely aware of him and his designs now, and he can never hide from me again.

But I was hoping you guys would have examined the site instead of wine and complain and come to these conclusions youself (with a little help from me). Just take your time no rush.

[Elfhelm]

Actually, it seemed to me the first time as a new twist on Holocaust Denial.

It always seemed to me as a child that gods children* where always punished and houseless, it just didn't make sense; I guest that's why I became an athiest, none of it made sense, now it does. Like someone wanted it to seem there is always hardship and pain when you follow god. Now I know that we are being lied to, they were rewarded with egypt not made slaves.

* = the Jews