Muslims

[Sister Golden Hair]

In closing, I beg members of the board not to flame me on my first post.

Welcome to Entmoot. Don't you worry there buddy, no one will flame you while ole Sister Golden Hair's around.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
While I think that the suicide attacks are certainly wrong, and to be condemned by all compassionate human beings on both sides of the issue, these events do not take place in a vacuum. These people, who find their current situation terrible enough that they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in what they consider a war for their way of life, are not "evil." To call either side "evil" is to grossly simplify a situation that is complicated beyond imagining, and to attempt to put it into neat little sides of "good" and "evil" when such lables do not fit. What are they, then?

Desperate.

Frustrated.

Caught in a situation that they see as hopeless, and unable to find any way out other than to give their lives to the cause.

If they were on "our" side, we might even consider them to be noble, like Nathan Hale, or any of the other martyrs who have lived through history.

I could agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that there have been many times where peace could have been worked out - the latest being with the Roadmap to Peace. But REPEATEDLY - no matter what Israel does - the suicide bombers come into Israel and kill innocent people eating dinner, waiting at bus stops, etc. The terrorists have made it perfectly clear that they don't want peace AT ALL. They know - if they have peace - they have no power - they can no longer play the victim role without the conflict between themselves and Israel. They don't care about the suffering of their people - if they did they would work toward peace. They would be putting their money into schools - instead of going out to restaurants to blow up men, women and children.

But I also think it is incredibly naive of Americans to assume that since these people attacked us, they must be "evil." Their actions were evil, that is true. There is no excuse whatsoever for the taking of human life to prove a point.

The person you are quoting isn't even American. So I don't know why you are saying "naive of Americans". Also - for your information that person is a 14 year old who lives in Israel with his sisters, parents and other family members. He has to live through these suicide madmen. I think he can speak better on the feelings of the suicide attackers and what Israel is like better than anyone here. His view may be slightly distorted - but no more than anyone elses.

I also think that him and his family show a lot of restraint toward the Palestinians. They don't hate the palestinians - all they want to do is live in peace. I am just glad that Rad lives on the western part of Israel - further away from the main conflict (he does live by Tel-Aviv though - so it's still bad). I would also not use the term evil- but I would use fanatical madmen. The Palestinian terrorists have REPEATLY demonstrated that they have NO desire for peace AND that is who Israel is fighting against NOT the Palestinians in general.

However, had we ever listened before? For decades we have supported Israel over the Muslim countries in the area for strategic and political reasons, alienating most of the Arab world in the process. We have come in and criticized their culture (not that it doesn't deserve it, but we must look at this from their point of view), and attempted to force our moral values down their throats. Christian missionaries have preached at them with their hell and damnation messages targeted to pull them from their Heathen religion to the Truth and Light. We have treated them as inferiors, ignored their pleas for help, and supported their enemies tirelessly since the need for oil from the region began. It is hardly suprising that they would be angered.

I guess you haven't heard the hatred that spews out of many of the mosques and schools in the Middle East? Or heard their intolerance? Of course not everyone over there is like that - but the people who aren't have to stand up and speak against the people who want to just continue the violence. I hear too few voices calling for peace - and too many voices here in the West calling for talk.

Unless the other side is will to meet halfway - there can be no peace - NO MATTER how many times the West extends it's hand. I want to see TRUE outcries for peace from the Middle East - like there are here in the West. I don't see Palestinians or Muslims marching in the streets and demonstrating calling for Suicide Bombers to stop. When I see that - I will truly think that the Middle East wants peace.

[jerseydevil]

I wish to state again, this does not validate the actions of Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, or those we would classify as terrorists. Life is sacred, and there are other ways to make a point. But these people are not "evil." They are frightened, frustrated, desperate and brainwashed individuals who believe they can change the world by doing these things. It is sad to me that such passion and dedication can not be channeled into productive instead of destructive avenues.

It is amazing. Why don't we just call the nazi and white supremicists and the Germany of WWII - frigtened, frustrated, desperate and brainwashed? I see NO difference in the FANATICAL Islam that so many people teach and the Nazi propaganda machine. One was done with flags, speeches, parades, and youth camps and the other is just done through a religion - through the Mosques and schools. No one would say they are "sad" about Hitler or feel sorry for his warped since of duty or so called "hurt" that caused him to exterminate millions of people during World War II.

I will agree with you that MANY of them are simply brainwashed. But that does not excuse a suicide bomber's actions or their responsibility.

In closing, I beg members of the board not to flame me on my first post.

I hope you don't consider this a flame - I just disagree with you on some issues with the Middle East and whether they are REALLY trying to have peace in the world. So welcome to Entmoot.

[Percy Weasley]

I certainly do not consider your post a flame; you make some decent points that certainly must be considered in any discussion of this topic. Nobody knows all the answers - if they did, the situation would have been resolved years ago.

I agree with you that the Palestinians are using the wrong tactics in their struggle. However, if you say that the Palestinians do not want peace because they will not stop the fighting, I would also like to put on the table that by this reasoning, Sharon also does not want peace, as he has hardly been the first one to lay down the sword.

I realize that it is hard to be the first one to take the step and refuse to participate in the fighting. But I truly believe that this is what must happen - there can be no peace while both sides still live in such violence and hatred. One side must step forward, be brave, and say "no more."

Peace to all,
Percy

[Percy Weasley]

But that does not excuse a suicide bomber's actions or their responsibility.

I completely agree, and was under the impression that I stated this in my post.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I agree with you that the Palestinians are using the wrong tactics in their struggle. However, if you say that the Palestinians do not want peace because they will not stop the fighting, I would also like to put on the table that by this reasoning, Sharon also does not want peace, as he has hardly been the first one to lay down the sword.

The thing I disagree with here is that Israel did start bull dozing checkpoints, they were pulling troops out, they were starting to dismantle the settlements and had given many settlers orders to facate. This was all part of the Roadmap to Peace - it was welcomed by the suicide bombers with three bomb attacks in ONE weekend. While Israel was pulling out - and making an effort - the bombers attacked. Arafat stands in the way too - that is why everyone that takes the positon as Palestinian "prime minister" soon resigns. The first one resigned and now the second one is saying he is going to resign. That Arafat wants to retain too much control and will not let them make the changes necessary to bring peace.

I realize that it is hard to be the first one to take the step and refuse to participate in the fighting. But I truly believe that this is what must happen - there can be no peace while both sides still live in such violence and hatred. One side must step forward, be brave, and say "no more."

I think Israel has made many efforts and it has just been met with more violence. I used agree with that - even during the Roadmap to Peace - there were many times where I hoped that Israel would not respond to a bombing - and sometimes they actually didn't. But after that bloody weekend - when israel was pulling out and they still received 3 bombings - I can't accept it anymore. The Palestinians MUST be the ones now who demonstrate that they want peace - and not just by words - but by actions.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I completely agree, and was under the impression that I stated this in my post.

Yes - but I will not make excuses for their actions either. Intentional killing of innocent people is wrong - I don't care how desperate they are or brainwashed or anything.

I think the IRA bombings of the past in Northern Ireland and England were wrong. They are INTENTIONALLY targetting innocent people. My ancestors are Irish and I grew up Catholic - there is no excuse for the actions of the IRA - at least strong enough to bomb innocent people.

[Percy Weasley]

Forgive me, I am not meaning to make excuses for these people, as I do not believe that there is any excuse for the terrible crimes they have commited.

I am simply trying to look at things from their point of view.

There is a difference between "understanding" and "agreeing," and I am simply trying to do the former.

Nobody does anything that drastic without motivation of some sort, and perhaps if it is possible to understand the motivation, it will be much easier to understand how to end this conflict to the satisfaction of both sides.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Forgive me, I am not meaning to make excuses for these people, as I do not believe that there is any excuse for the terrible crimes they have commited.

I am simply trying to look at things from their point of view.

There is a difference between "understanding" and "agreeing," and I am simply trying to do the former.

Okay. I just wanted to make sure.

Nobody does anything that drastic without motivation of some sort, and perhaps if it is possible to understand the motivation, it will be much easier to understand how to end this conflict to the satisfaction of both sides.

That is true - but then again - both sides have to want to understand each other. I think there are people on the muslim and palestinian side who truly want peace, but at this time - they're not the vocal majority in the Middle East.

Take bin Ladin - his list keeps changing as he comes up with more ideas to be against us. Yet - in one speech he made - and I'm sure he has said this many times before - he clearly says that his goal is the complete destruction of the Western world. That he wants Islam to be the only thing left on earth. Now we can't reason with him, we can't really understand his objections - because his objections are just their to obtain a goal. As I feel the objections of the suicide bombers aren't anything but a way to get to a goal - the elimination of Israel.

We do have to do something to make it so terrorist groups have more and more trouble recruiting impressionable youth into their fanatical islam. But that is going to take decades most likely and it's not going to be an easy road. The West also can't do this alone - we need the help of the Middle East. The Middle East must know that we will not tolerate these terrorists.

[Percy Weasley]

We do have to do something to make it so terrorist groups have more and more trouble recruiting impressionable youth into their fanatical islam. But that is going to take decades most likely and it's not going to be an easy road. The West also can't do this alone - we need the help of the Middle East. The Middle East must know that we will not tolerate these terrorists.

Yes, this is true.

But how do we do this?

The most obvious answer to me would be to improve the quality of life for these people to the point that they do not feel that they are in such desperate straits. The poverty and misery that is endemic in these countries among the working class is a breeding ground for discontent, and when combined with a repressive regime that gives the citizenry no outlet to express their opinions and frustrations, you have a ticking bomb.

Therefore, I believe that the best way to stop terrorism -- and you are certainly right in saying that this will take time and patience -- is to help them learn to help themselves, better their social circumstances, make sure they have food on their tables and roofs over their heads, and show them, not by preaching at them, but by our actions, that we are not the enemy.

There is a great deal of hatred to overcome, but this hatred cannot be overcome with violence on our side. If you add fire to fire, you simply get a bigger fire. The only way to overcome this hatred is with love.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Isn't bin ladin quite wealthy? You would think that a man of his means, that claims to care so much about Islam, would put his money to better use than by training terrorists to fly planes into skyscrapers. I think he is a nut and should be eliminated for the sake of the whole world.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Yes, this is true.

But how do we do this?

The most obvious answer to me would be to improve the quality of life for these people to the point that they do not feel that they are in such desperate straits. The poverty and misery that is endemic in these countries among the working class is a breeding ground for discontent, and when combined with a repressive regime that gives the citizenry no outlet to express their opinions and frustrations, you have a ticking bomb.

Therefore, I believe that the best way to stop terrorism -- and you are certainly right in saying that this will take time and patience -- is to help them learn to help themselves, better their social circumstances, make sure they have food on their tables and roofs over their heads, and show them, not by preaching at them, but by our actions, that we are not the enemy.

I agree with you 100% here. I think we need to do this - and I think we are trying to do this now - even in Iraq and Afganistan. If we succeed in those places - I think it will be a huge step to overcoming terrorism. Although for the short term we well have the terrorism we currently have in Iraq. I think after the electricity is running fully, after the water is fully running, the schools are up and people are getting an education, and food is coming and people are opening businesses - the middle east may see that the US has helped those countries.

There is a great deal of hatred to overcome, but this hatred cannot be overcome with violence on our side. If you add fire to fire, you simply get a bigger fire. The only way to overcome this hatred is with love.

Here I somewhat disagree with you - if you mean never to use war to obtain peace. Sometimes war is the only thing left to bring about a greater peace. Without war we would never have overcome Hitler or the many other evils of the past. Terrorism is just another form of evil.

If you are imply that the war in Iraq was wrong - I disagree. I think it was important for many reasons - least of which was WMD. I think we need to take out Hussein to free his people of his tortures and excutions, to develop a workign democracy in Iraq (which we will succeed, becuase it's the most important thing). Without taking out Hussein and making a change to a middle eastern country from the ground up - we have no chance of the other other countries to making the necessary changes on their own.

[Percy Weasley]

Who knows why he does what he does?

You can listen to what he says, but it is most likely that the truth is somewhere between the lines.

Perhaps he believes in what he is preaching; perhaps he believes we truly are evil and to be destroyed. That would be little different than what the Knights on the Crusades believed about the Muslims, or the Nazis about the Jews. It is disgusting, but it is not new.

Perhaps he enjoys the power such a position gives him. Perhaps he was wealthy, but it was not until he became such a feared terrorist that he gained fame.

Perhaps he is simply, as you believe, mentally ill.

Any of these options are surely possible.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Isn't bin ladin quite wealthy? You would think that a man of his means, that claims to care so much about Islam, would put his money to better use than by training terrorists to fly planes into skyscrapers. I think he is a nut and should be eliminated for the sake of the whole world.

Yes - he is extremely wealthy. If he cared about Afganistan as much as he claimed and the other country's of the Middle East - he could have easily have built the hospitals, schools, roads and factories and created jobs that he claims the west is preventing. Instead he chose to put his money into terror training camps.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
...That would be little different than what the Knights on the Crusades believed about the Muslims..

Actually the crusades were in response to the Muslim take over of Europe and then the crusaders mission was to regain the Holy Lands.

Perhaps he enjoys the power such a position gives him. Perhaps he was wealthy, but it was not until he became such a feared terrorist that he gained fame.

Actually he's the son of the founder/owner of one of the largest, if not the largest, construction companies in Saudi Arabia. He is extremely wealthy and he grew up in very previledged life. At some point - I think in his 20's - he found fanatical Islam.

[Percy Weasley]

I should probably state from the outset that I am a millitant pacifist - I was raised that way. My parents are Quakers, and while I am not, I have carried most of their social values into my moral and spiritual structure.

I do disagree with the war in Iraq, on many grounds, primarily because I do not believe that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and I believe that we were lied to by the Bush administration. Perhaps this is not true, it is likely that the people of the United States will never know for sure. It is my dearest belief that until the United States finally realizes that it is better to use diplomacy than our vast military strength, that it is better to use love and discussion than the iron fist, that we will continue to create enemies throughout the world.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I should probably state from the outset that I am a millitant pacifist - I was raised that way. My parents are Quakers, and while I am not, I have carried most of their social values into my moral and spiritual structure.

I do disagree with the war in Iraq, on many grounds, primarily because I do not believe that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and I believe that we were lied to by the Bush administration. Perhaps this is not true, it is likely that the people of the United States will never know for sure. It is my dearest belief that until the United States finally realizes that it is better to use diplomacy than our vast military strength, that it is better to use love and discussion than the iron fist, that we will continue to create enemies throughout the world.

I think though, that being the most powerful nation in the world, you are expected to do certian things, certian ways. If the US did not go to war against Iraq, and Iraq at some later point attacked another country, or did something horrific under Sadam, who do you think would be blamed for that? As I said earlier in this thread. The US is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I do disagree with the war in Iraq, on many grounds, primarily because I do not believe that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and I believe that we were lied to by the Bush administration. Perhaps this is not true, it is likely that the people of the United States will never know for sure. It is my dearest belief that until the United States finally realizes that it is better to use diplomacy than our vast military strength, that it is better to use love and discussion than the iron fist, that we will continue to create enemies throughout the world.

Roosevelt said - "speak softly and carry a big stick" the thing is - you can't be afraid of using that stick.

Hussein was given many times to comply with the UN resolutions and he refused repeatedly. It was time to stop pussy footing around and take action. Several months ago we found entire fighter jets buiried in the sand. I'm not going to be surprised when we find weapons of mass destruction. It was just George Bush's adminstration who said they were there - Clinton one or two years before leaving office also stated that Iraq was a serious problem and held stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

I think we played Mr Nice Guy long enough with Iraq and I think without Hussein there - Iraqis will have a far better life than they have had since he's been in power. The only thing holding us back really is the militant terrorist organizations. We have to stop the bombings and the only way to do that is to let the Iraqi people see that things are really getting A LOT better. As long as they can see that their life will be better with the help of the US - they won't side with the terrorists. The majority of Baghdad residents in the latest independent poll still supports the US being there - the terrorists are a fringe element that captures most of the media attention though.

[Percy Weasley]

That is a legitimate concern, and I will be the first to tell you that pacifism is far from easy. It is much easier to hit someone back when they hit you than to clench your fist and refrain.

But it comes down to this - someone has to be brave and stop the cycle of violence. Someone has to say "I am not doing this anymore." Will they suffer for it? Probably. Nobody would say that the followers of Gandhi had an easy time, or that they didn't suffer.

As for the United States being the policemen of the world - this can be done in a non-violent way as well as a violent one. We control such a huge percentage of the world economy that it could easily be used as leverage, and if we are patient enough, would work as well as violence.

[Percy Weasley]

Iraq is an extreme case.

Of course, it would have been better if we had a little more foresight, and had not built his regime in the first place during the Iran/Iraq war, but that is a moot point, and not worth arguing.

The things Hussein was doing to his people were horrific. There is no denying that. Just listening to them made me sick to my stomach.

What do you do in a situation like that?

I believe that life is sacred, and it is not our place to kill, but how do you stop someone who seems to be touched by nothing, and who is able to perform such crimes against humanity?

I am not upset that Hussein is out of power, and I will be honest and say that I don't know another way that we could have done it other than the way we did.

But the war itself saddens me as well. All of the men who died on both sides of the conflict, and all of those who are still dying today...all of the hatred created, all of the sorrow, all of the misery and suffering that removing Saddam created...is it really worth it? I know you will say yes, it is, and perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. I don't know. I don't claim to know all the answers. All I know is that this whole situation has made me very, very sad.