Egypt is the origin of Christianity, Judaism & Islam

[The Telcontarion]

No repost elfhelm?

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I have produced experts and there opinions, all you do is swagger around, run your mouth off as if your word and your word alone is enough to convince anyone that you are right.

Experts? One crackpot, and suddenly they're experts now?

This is my reference :

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/090...lance&n=283155

That's what I use for transliterations (for translations I also check what other sites put forward (like wikipedia.com) in conjunction with what the dictionary suggests). The historical stuff can be easily cross-checked in wikipedia.com if you really insist (as those are the dates I have gone off).

Now you want to draw this back all the way to the Elendil issue? Why are you doing that, because you can't debate me on the issue at hand? Everything you mentioned I have already explained. "Crafted names like Elendil?" I never said that, please quote me.

Huh? I ask because it was related to some of your other suppositions. As far as I'm concerned, I have consistently debunked the historical/translatiion stuff. I don't "swagger" around. I did this stuff for 4 years at university. I have a basic working knowledge that in conjunction with the tools I still have (ie dictionary) I have used to disprove your 'theories'. Period.

As far as Tolkien & the name Elendil, this is what you said :

Tolkien studied egyptian language extensively, to the point that the numenorean language is based on it. Eg. Elendil's name like any numenorean name is spelled only with the constanants, LNL in feanorion characters of course.

When have I ever said these things are irrelivant please quote me. I think you are saying these things because you are subconsciously admitting that they are. Again, please quote me.

Here you go - you clearly state that the transliterations refuting your Maryam 'theory' were a waste of time:

And get your reactions to the audio and then move on from there instead we waste time talking about nefertiti and the like.

[The Telcontarion]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I am concerned with the search for Truth, and the general topic seems to be well-handled by those more competent than I.



*BB Bows*

.. an' heh i ain't even read this stuff yet ... but thanks all the same Gwai !

Where was this posted origianlly, just curious!!

[HOBBIT]

I listened to your 6 minute long call.

All I got out of it was that you visit this guys site 7 hours a day and you give your classmates and teachers a hard time. You see the similarities of the Nefertiti statue with a baby pharoh and statues with Mary and baby jesus as definitive proof. I don't see why.

[The Telcontarion]

Elendil's name like any numenorean name is spelled only with the constanants, LNL in feanorion characters of course.

how is this saying that he used egyptian to craft names like elendil? Spell, ok spell is what I said...your just making stuff up.

Now you want to draw this back all the way to the Elendil issue? Why are you doing that, because you can't debate me on the issue at hand? Everything you mentioned I have already explained. "Crafted names like Elendil?" I never said that, please quote me.


Huh? I ask because it was related to some of your other suppositions.

This from a person that is complaining about me bringing up the roseta stone? At least that has to do with the issue at hand, the elendil stuff does not, it is a distraction. You donot like the fact that I brought up the roseta stone because, you know it totally removes the foundations of every arguement you have presented. So keep trying to dismiss me and my arguements to thrust forward your propoganda. This is the issue.

Yours is the traditional, mine refutes it; I think with compelling arguments, you say it's crock and a waste of time. Ok, From this point all I can say is people can make up their own mines.

I have nothing else to say to you, this form of hostile banter and narrow minded views, and dismissive approach is not what I am looking for. Good day to you!!

Here you go - you clearly state that the transliterations refuting your Maryam 'theory' were a waste of time:

Quote:
And get your reactions to the audio and then move on from there instead we waste time talking about nefertiti and the like.

See this is what I am talking about, you know full well that I am talking about the typo, saying nefertiti when I wanted to say Nefatari. You where going on and about it, you even you said:

As far as your 'typo' goes, fine, but in any case, neither one of those historical figures (either Nefertari or Nefertiti)

So here you are acting as if I am refuting timelines when you know full well what I meant, I was talking about the typo. This is not honest discourse, certainly not with you. Trust me, as it was several posts before you have shown your colors again, I will not debate with you further. Good-day.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

I listened to your 6 minute long call.

All I got out of it was that you visit this guys site 7 hours a day and you give your classmates and teachers a hard time. You see the similarities of the Nefertiti statue with a baby pharoh and statues with Mary and baby jesus as definitive proof. I don't see why.

OK, that's fine. Thanks, I just wanted your opinion on the issue. I oviously found it entriguing.

[The Telcontarion]

Again Elfhelm, would you repost the forum here in it's entirety, so people may judge for themselves, as a post to an excerpt. I can't think that it would be too hard for you top do!!!!!

[Elfhelm]

Ancient Egyptian is still spoken?!?! oooooh-kaaaayyyy...

The Sphinx is Abraham?!?! uh... I had... no idea!

You wish me to post the entire egyptolist.com website her? Why?

Like you say, there's no gun to my head. Later.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Ancient Egyptian is still spoken?!?! oooooh-kaaaayyyy...

The Sphinx is Abraham?!?! uh... I had... no idea!

You wish me to post the entire egyptolist.com website her? Why?

Like you say, there's no gun to my head. Later.

These are his claims, Elfhelm. I am still waiting on the repost of the forum. And there is no egyptolist.com!!! You are so full of it. Any way I will go ahead and find the link again and repost it in full. Good day.

[The Telcontarion]

Another interesting tidbit!!!!

http://www.abolhol.com/Index/004%20O...es_English.htm

[The Telcontarion]

Very strong but simple mathematical illustration of how the pyramids where built!!!

The following important message has been posted online on Isis-Moon Club after the original Theory on the website of Ossama Alsaadawi,

I find it proper to include it here for the sake of good Egyptology.

Best Regards,
Ossama Alsaadawi



Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 19:32:07 -0000
From: "clubsmoderator"

Subject: NEWS ARTICLE: New theory of the building of the Great Pyramid

To travel from the USA to Egypt in just few hours is a real wonder, but using a Boeing 747 is a much more wonderful fact. Both are true wonders that no one can deny. However, when one arrives to Giza Plateau in Egypt and looks to the Great Pyramid of Khufu, he or she stands at once astounded, knowing that he or she is facing a real True Fact that dates back to immemorial ancient civilization. The mind is sparkled immediately by three questions: 1- When? 2- Why? 3- How?

Unfortunately and surprisingly, modern humans have failed to answer these three logic questions for more than 4000 bygone years. Even Herodot failed to answer it when he visited ancient Egypt in 430BC.
In this article, we'll try to shed light on the primary answer of the third question only, that is: How the Ancient Egyptian Great Pyramid of Khufu has been constructed?

There are remnants of nearly 80 pyramids that stand alongside the path of the river Nile in Egypt. Some of them are still in good condition but we are mainly interested in GP because it is the highest and most interesting one.

Knowledgeable archaeologists and Egyptologists explain that: The Main bulk of the GP is composed of 2.5 million stone blocks, each weighs 3 tons in average. This colossal mass of stone blocks is compiled in a pyramid-shaped construction with a maximum height of 146 m and base side-length of nearly 230-m. It stands on top of a plateau, or big rocky hill, the roof of which is raised 60m above the water level of the Nile, known as Giza Plateau.

Up to now there is no real problem. However, one little bit of technical data is really interesting. Architects assert that the King's Chamber (KC) only is roofed by 9 vast massive granite stone blocks, each weighing 75 tons. Egyptologists say that they are no more than 40 tons according to their rough estimations.
Archaeologists say that that each weighs 55 tons. KC is placed at a height of nearly 70m from the base of the GP or nearly 130m from the water level of the Nile.

Here, we reach the real problem of the GP construction, which is
summarized by the following very simple question: How could engineers of King Khufu raised-up 55 ton stone blocks to a height of 130 meters? To clarify this question in a better way, let's ask: How could modern humans raise a 55 ton truck up to the roof of a skyscraper, like the Empire State Building for instance, without using any kind of machinery or self-propellant engines?

Egyptologists answered this question by bringing forth the ramp-theory, which states that the ancient Egyptians raised up these 55 ton stone blocks by dragging them up a ramp with a slope of 6-8 degrees, made of dust or hard mud using no rollers but only manpower and some lubricants! Many people believed them but a few believe it to be impossible.

Why do they believe it impossible? Well, let simple mathematics speak: Work done = mass x gravity x height - that is - (W = m x g x h). Therefore, work done to raise up one 55 ton stone block is: W = 55000 kg x 10 x 130 = 71,500,000 joules (nearly 71 million joules). 1 horsepower = 750 joules/sec. Therefore, energy needed to raise up only ONE granite beam is equal to nearly 95 thousand horsepower/sec, or nearly a million manpower/sec, which is IMPOSSIBLE to attain by human force alone.

Then, what if we calculated the whole work done necessary to build up the whole Great Pyramid? Alsaadawi says that it is given simply as: Total work done = 0.22 x total mass x gravity x maximum height. So, total work done used to build the Great Pyramid is: 0.22 x 7.5 billion kgs x 10 x 146 > 2.4 Tera Joules. Therefore, calculations indicate that King Khufu needed billions of horsepower to realize this historic world wonder that has survived for long thousands of years!

Conclusion: No way with ramps and No way with manpower alone to build the GP. There must be some kind of external natural active-power to realize the job. The question now is; what was this active power? One new theory is that this active power was Water. That is, hydraulic force of successive inundation waters that was used within a highly organized state project to raise up the main massive stone bulk of the Great Pyramid within a big hydraulic complex, using ascending wells, leakage water tunnels, heavy wooden floats, boats, etc.


So, the question of how 5 ton stone blocks could be raised up to a height of 20 meters without using modern machinery or human labor, could be answered that it could be done by Hydraulic Lifts. If this new theory is true, Pharaoh Khufu used ascending wells, hydraulic lifts and hydraulic techniques for building his Great Pyramid, power = water mass / area of ascending well. This would be the golden hydraulic rule on which Khufu may have relied, to design very effective hydraulic lifts and to raise-up colossal heavy stones up to high altitudes. This leads to the assumption that nearly all pyramids and even mastabas were built using the same technique, that is Hydraulic Lifts.

Those people who agree with this modern theory also state that: If friction is ignored then the work done (energy spent) is m*g*h, no matter what path is taken by the mass; it is only the change is height that is important. This is a result of physics that applies to many different situations. Including the effect of friction can only increase the required amount of work, and now the path taken to raise the mass is important. The least work would be done by lifting the mass straight up (pushing the mass up a slope, even if it were on wheels, would take more energy). No matter what method of construction they used (ramps, pulleys, cranes, counter-weights or levers) this is the amount of energy that had to be spent by the workmen, if no other source of power was harnessed.

The granite beams would destroy these ramps, so these blocks may have been lifted by some other method. Inundation power would greatly simplify this, as the problem becomes a matter of buoyancy which invalidates the use of m*g*h. Furthermore, these granite beams had to have been lowered into position. Surely sliding them into position would pull the King's chamber apart.

Some people try to ignore all scientific and physical evidence to prove that their imaginary wrong assumptions are correct. They insist that a group of men is able to raise up a 50 ton granite block up a muddy ramp to a 50 meter height using only their hands and manpower. When we told them that physics and science proved that this is impossible, they said we'd prove it practically! They brought 1-ton stone block (using a truck) to the location and used about 20 men to drag the stone up a very small pre-prepared ramp that extends to only 2 meters height in 2 hours hardworking. Then they said, you see: the experiment has succeeded.

But what if they tried another only additional eight meters of height? In, fact the stone weight will not remain 1 ton. It'll be 1 ton plus its new gravitational weight, which is (1+m*g*h). It means the new stone weight is, (1+1000*10*10/10/1000/2) = (1+5) = 6 tons.
Now they need much more men to raise-up the new weight, which is (6 tons), not only 1 ton! Then what about only additional 20 meters?! or at upper courses of the GP at an altitude of 130 meters for instance?
As one might expect, those who do not agree with the old theories of pyramid construction call the experiment a BIG FAILURE, even using only a 1-ton stone block.

Followers of the new theory also have further stated: Our calculations convinced us that most of the ramp concepts would have been impractical because they involved a construction effort greater than that required for the pyramid itself. We assumed that the ancient Egyptians would not commit resources to building anything more than minimally required given the fact that the ramp had to be demolished at the conclusion of construction.

According to the new theorists: The Lehner-Hawas ramp theory failed to find `any' scientific proof further than faint traces of some small ramps used for labor traffic and water motion control.
Meanwhile, the new Hydraulic Theory of Alsaadawi has not denied evident scientific and archaeological facts. One example only is that archaeologists found more than 10 ships and barges preserved inside `airtight' pits ON TOP of Giza plateau. Some people said that those barges were used by the pharaoh and his inferiors to ride the sunbeam to go to the sky to meet sun-god (ra). Scientifically these boats were used as an integrated part of the massive hydraulic system.

The major reason for rejecting the theory of a ramp was the geographical limitation of the Giza Plateau. All kinds of mathematical estimations and physical evidence proved that it was IMPOSSIBLE to use high ramps in raising-up massive stones of the GP.
In other words, the builders had to wait for the water level to reach the required course, place the stones in the same pace of the water rising, and stop working as soon as the level exceeded the desired level. The next year, they still had to wait idle until the water level reached where they have stopped previously, and race against time again fulfilling the 9-10 courses quota before the water level changed again.

This had to be repeated over several years, until the Nile could not reach the required original height of 481 ft. Then they would proceed by using an engineering system means to `control' waters motion and levels by some well-known hydraulic techniques like the case in shipyards using water locks. In fact, working on GP construction never stopped because of differentiation of inundation power. Raising up was only one small operation of the whole project.

An interesting fact: The stones of the initial 18 courses average 2-6 tons apiece. Starting the 19th course, the stones became huge (10-15 apiece) for the next 203 courses. The rule of logic dictates a progressive diminution of mass as one goes upwards. That's why Hydraulic Theory is believed by some to be the only one that Works.
This would be the real Genius of Khufu and the GP. For this reason 8 major armies failed, in the long history of Egypt, to demolish the GP.

*****************************************
AnkhIwiEmHotep

[The Telcontarion]

Here is the link. If you scroll but a little over a third of the way down, you will come to the post that Elfhelm posted here. however reading the whole thing is facinating in the extreme!!!!!!

http://egyptologist.org/discus/messa...tml?1027386079

[The Telcontarion]

this is also very intriguing.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/F...TML/000336.html

this link has permanently failed!!!

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Like you say, there's no gun to my head. Later.

Yeah, I'll join you. *ignore*

[The Telcontarion]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfhelm
Like you say, there's no gun to my head. Later.

BeardofPants
Yeah, I'll join you. *ignore*

Cat got your tongue eh. Anyway good riddens. I don't need you to reply to my challenges (because you know it goes down hill from here), as I have said before, the mooters on this site can read.

All our discourse has been posted here. Have not such a good day.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Yeah, this thread is gonna get locked, I can just hear those keys jingling.

and later rather than sooner

I can't leave you guys for a moment.

Cool down-padlocked for 48 hrs.

YOU MUST NOT ATTACK THE POSTER NOR WANDER FROM THE TOPIC

There has been too much personal bickering, name calling and rude language on this thread, try to be less so.

[Spock]

Ah, a decent nights sleep and some pleasant topics on CBS Sunday Morning has carried me past the deadline by about 2 hrs.

NOW OPEN FOR BUSINESS

KEEP IT CIVIL or risk closure again.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Here is the link. If you scroll but a little over a third of the way down, you will come to the post that Elfhelm posted here. however reading the whole thing is facinating in the extreme!!!!!!

http://egyptologist.org/discus/messa...tml?1027386079

Just reposting it to bring attention to it. So, fellow mooters, instead of excerpt you will get the entire forum.

The original link was not working for some reason, both will now be edited to change that problem.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I posted the issue about the rosetta stone, which you apparently did not read, you should. because if you did you would have learned that there has always been problems reading the glyphs using the established academic method by champollion.

Ho now, just because I don't mention something in my post, doesn't mean I didn't read it. So please be careful with assumptions on what I read and don't read. In fact, I have read your post and I know that reading hieroglyphs isn't without problems. But I just wanted to be sure whether I understood correctly what you were saying.

[The Telcontarion]

Eärniel
Firstly, while I have an interest in ancient history I'm pretty much an amateur and truth be told much of this linguistic talk is over my head, so I'm going about it nice and simple.

So Telcontarion, if I read that article right, between the many exclamation marks, this Alsaadawi fellow, a self-taught hieroglyph-reader, couldn't read hieroglyphs the traditional way and ergo decided the traditional way was wrong. Not only was it wrong, but he himself also has found the 'true' way of reading hieroglyphs. The question that I find myself asking then is: what have egyptologists have been reading all those years, ever since Champollion? This better not be another conspiracy.

Elfhelm, thanks for digging up that article by de Greef, it's always interesting to hear from the opposite party. I didn't get everything but what I did get was interesting. Maybe I should show this to my bigsis who's in the field and probably can explain to me, using small words.

And lastly, a friendly word from your moderator: We all like debate but there be rules to follow and they'll be enforced. Attack arguments, not people. That goes for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telcontarion
I posted the issue about the rosetta stone, which you apparently did not read, you should. because if you did you would have learned that there has always been problems reading the glyphs using the established academic method by champollion.

Eärniel
Ho now, just because I don't mention something in my post, doesn't mean I didn't read it. So please be careful with assumptions on what I read and don't read. In fact, I have read your post and I know that reading hieroglyphs isn't without problems. But I just wanted to be sure whether I understood correctly what you were saying.

Oh, assumed you missed that post.

Your original post quoted first above, lead me to believe you didn't, especially when you mentioned champollion. You didn't say you were trying to varify anything so there was no way for me to tell. The post about the roseta stone points out the mistakes of champollion so I assumed you got that. So sorry, I didn't mean to assume. But your wording was very confusing.