Iraqis Forgive Americans

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
Yes, you are right, unfortunately war isn't viewed as a crime. I'm a very idealistic person, so I can see why alot of people disagree with what I've said. I would just like to say that I do like my country, America. Even though I don't like George Bush, I have respect for our soldiers who are fighting for their beliefs. However, I have different beliefs/views and I would like them to respected as well.

I would like to pose a hypothetical question to you Ragnarok. Since you say you are an idealistic person and your beliefs/views which are obviously anti-war; you are a young man from what I can tell from your profile. What would you do if the draft were initiated and you were called to go to war? I know this is a little off topic, but I would be interested in hearing your answer. I think it would be a very difficult thing to do for someone with your views.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Radagast
I think, Jerseydevil, that you should amend your statement to 'war crimes of Germany's scale did not exist before WWII' because it is foolish and narrow minded in the extreme to say that they did not exist before 1939.

What i was saying was that war crimes were not defined then. There were no war crimes - because there was no international law to prosecute. My statement stands - there were no war crimes prior to World War II. Of course today we can say such and such would be a war crime - but they didn't have war crimes - so they weren't considered war crimes back then. It was until World War II.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I would like to pose a hypothetical question to you Ragnarok. Since you say you are an idealistic person and your beliefs/views which are obviously anti-war; you are a young man from what I can tell from your profile. What would you do if the draft were initiated and you were called to go to war? I know this is a little off topic, but I would be interested in hearing your answer. I think it would be a very difficult thing to do for someone with your views.

Yes, it would be a difficult decision, since higher education nor moving to Canada will exempt you from the draft. Moving to a different country wouldn't work and if I did go to war it would destroy my goals in life, so either way I would be screwed. So if I was sent to war I would go, but I wouldn't fight. Hopefully I will never be put in that predicament.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
Yes, you are right, unfortunately war isn't viewed as a crime. I'm a very idealistic person, so I can see why alot of people disagree with what I've said. I would just like to say that I do like my country, America. Even though I don't like George Bush, I have respect for our soldiers who are fighting for their beliefs. However, I have different beliefs/views and I would like them to respected as well.

Idealism isn't the reality of the world - it's more like trying to live in a utopia or a fantasy world. We can wish there was no war - but as long as there are humans - such as Hitler, Hussein, Bin Ladin and so forth - there will be war. I disagree that the allies were wrong in going to war against Hitler. They should have declared war on Germany WAY before he attacked. Human nature is NOT going to change. As I said before - when there are ZERO fights on every playground in the world - maybe then there will be complete peace between nations. Show me one school where everyone gets along - or one family. War is just a conflict on a larger scale.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Idealism isn't the reality of the world - it's more like trying to live in a utopia or a fantasy world. We can wish there was no war - but as long as there are humans - such as Hitler, Hussein, Bin Ladin and so forth - there will be war. I disagree that the allies were wrong in going to war against Hitler. They should have declared war on Germany WAY before he attacked. Human nature is NOT going to change. As I said before - when there are ZERO fights on every playground in the world - maybe then there will be complete peace between nations. Show me one school where everyone gets along - or one family. War is just a conflict on a larger scale.

I agree that Hitler needed to be stopped, I don't agree with the whole "war criminal" aspect.

[Sister Golden Hair]

So if I was sent to war I would go, but I wouldn't fight. Hopefully I will never be put in that predicament

Hopefully not. Because unfortunately, if you refused to fight, you would surely die.

[Radagast]

Poor Ragnarok!

[Radagast]

EDIT: On reflection; what rot!

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
By the way - it's really sad to find out what so many Europeans on Entmoot think of America's role in World War II during this week which is the 60th anniversary of D-Day. I wonder - could that operation have succeeded without us? HELL NO! Some appreciation we get for all of our soldiers who died in World War I and World War II on EUROPEAN soil fighting a EUROPEAN war.

I have said it before and I will say it again, there is IMO no one, no one in Western Europe (except maybe some neo-nazi's) that isn't grateful that America came to our aid in the second World War. Regardless of the reasons America had for coming, regardless of whether those reasons where purely self-interest or no, they came. Maybe we could have taken care of Hitler ourselves, yes maybe, but it would have taken us a very long time.

Not only did they help us clear the occupying Germans from our territory but also provided us with funds to rebuild our lands, regardless of whether they or their opponents were once leveling them. And if I'm not mistaken it was in America that the means of massproducing the much-needed penicillin was discovered.

So Europe has a lot to be grateful about the involvement of America in World War II, and believe me: we are!

And frankly, I think that should have gone without me having to say so.

<-- disappointed smiley.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I have said it before and I will say it again, there is IMO no one, no one in Western Europe (except maybe some neo-nazi's) that isn't grateful that America came to our aid in the second World War. Regardless of the reasons America had for coming, regardless of whether those reasons where purely self-interest or no, they came. Maybe we could have taken care of Hitler ourselves, yes maybe, but it would have taken us a very long time.

Not only did they help us clear the occupying Germans from our territory but also provided us with funds to rebuild our lands, regardless of whether they or their opponents were once leveling them. And if I'm not mistaken it was in America that the means of massproducing the much-needed penicillin was discovered.

So Europe has a lot to be grateful about the involvement of America in World War II, and believe me: we are!

And frankly, I think that should have gone without me having to say so.

<-- disappointed smiley.

Well sometimes it has to be said when all anyone really does on entmoot too much is bitch about America. Have you read the repeated posts on this thread and past ones with people bitching about America not getting into the war when it first started. Sorry - but it does make Americans wonder if Europe really cares anymore. Sometimes I think that except for the towns directly liberated in France by Americans - and the people who personally experienced it - that Europeans basically don't care too much. That is the preception I get from listening to several Europeans on this board, listening to French news and from reading other sources on the web.

I appreciate your statements by the way. I know that you have made those comments before. Thank you -for acknowledging the sacrifices that we have made to European freedom - which didn't stop there - but continued throughout the cold war against the Soviet Union.

BTW - I wouldn't describe Fenir or Radagast as being neo-nazi - so it's not just them that don't seem grateful to the sacrifices Americans made.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
I agree that Hitler needed to be stopped, I don't agree with the whole "war criminal" aspect.

well I agree with war crimes in the respect of mass murder of innocent people OUTSIDE of the war though and that was what it was. It was war crimes against the jews, gypsies, homosexuals and others who were rounded up and brought to concentration camps to be gassed and killed. Wouldn't you agree that those would be considered crimes?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sometimes I think that except for the towns directly liberated in France by Americans - and the people who personally experienced it - that Europeans basically don't care too much. That is the preception I get from listening to several Europeans on this board, listening to French news and from reading other sources on the web.

Those towns that have experienced the liberation directly will of course remember it better than the rest of us. They have the most visible scars and history. But 60 years is a very long time for the memory of people, even my grandfather was a mere child in the Second World War. Much has happened since, the world has changed much. People forget. Even now people are saying that 9/11 had more influence on our world than the two world wars, simply because this is something the majority of today's population experienced for themselves. The world wars have become in people's every day life a footnote in history, no more recent than the Napoleonic wars.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
BTW - I wouldn't describe Fenir or Radagast as being neo-nazi - so it's not just them that don't seem grateful to the sacrifices Americans made.

Now, don't go putting words in my mouth, JD. I never put them on the same line as the neo-nazi's and I certainly didn't refer to them when I mentioned the neo-nazi's. The situation for those in the British Isles will no doubt have been perceived differently than those on the mainland, so I can't really speak for them. But I think that -in all honesty- no one from Western Europe, Fenir and Radagast included, can say we don't owe anything to the Americans for the outcome of the Second World War. And I don't think either Fenir or Radagast have ever expressed that they were not grateful of the help America offered in the Second World War. Questioning the reasons for America's involvement does not equal ingratitude.

EDITED for missing words.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Now, don't go putting words in my mouth, JD. I never put them on the same line as the neo-nazi's and I certainly didn't refer to them when I mentioned the neo-nazi's.

I wsn't saying you were sayng that. I was merely stating their attitude. You said that basically it's only neo-nazi who aren't thanksful for American involvement in World War II - well Radagast and Fenir seem to be a very ungrateful bunch and I know they aren't the only ones who have distain for the US - no matter what we do.

The situation for those in the British Isles will no doubt have been perceived differently than those on the mainland, so I can't really speak for them. But I think that -in all honesty- no one from Western Europe, Fenir and Radagast included, can say we don't owe anything to the Americans for the outcome of the Second World War. And I don't think either Fenir or Radagast have ever expressed that they were not grateful of the help America offered in the Second World War. Questioning the reasons for America's involvement does not equal ingratitude.

They just weren't questioning our involvement - they have an obvious disdain for America. They haven't shown any gratitude - but contrary to your observations - they have shown plenty of ingratitute toward us. We not only came in to help out with Europe's war and yes - it was Europe's war - we also had to deal with the Japanese Empire - which we were getting NO help on. How many British war ships were in the Pacific fighting the Japanese - yet - I got a speech from Radagast how Britain "let" Anmerica use it's airbases and had given us money to fight in Europe. Well all I can say to Britain is thanks for supporting us in saving your country - that was very kind and nice of you.

I would hardly consider this an example of gratitude...

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
WW2, the greatest ever war, saw the Americans enter at the end of 1941.
"But Fenir," asks little Timmy, "didnt WW2 start in September 1939?"

"Well yes, little Timmy, apparently out American friends were late to the party again..."

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I would hardly consider this an example of gratitude...

So its good to see that 'we' are not the only ones who make blanket statments about other nations. You crap on and on about how "America" did not torture those Iraqis, just Americans, then perhaps some Europeans, not Europe, do not agree with your spin on things?

May I remind you again, my naive American, that Europe is not one people, nor one nation, but several, so you cannot say that "Europe" was un-grateful. Perhaps you have no idea what you are talking about? Oh perhaps?

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They just weren't questioning our involvement - they have an obvious disdain for America. They haven't shown any gratitude - but contrary to your observations - they have shown plenty of ingratitute toward us.

Far be it for me to think this of course, and everyone stop me if I am horribly mistaken in this assumption, but I am pretty sure we can "disdain" any thing we damn well choose. Hmmm?

I, or more accuratley my grandparents, may wish to drop to their knees in gratitude for US involvement in the world wars, but I do not.
And before you say that I should be forever grateful for my skin, and wrap my childrens puppies in the US flag, may I remind you that you currently 'disdain' the french, for their non envolement in Iraq.
Tell me, was the Statue of Liberty quarried in New Jersey? You seemed to have liked the French once. Perhaps, they have done something RECENTLY, that you dont like?

Do you catch my point?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I wsn't saying you were sayng that. I was merely stating their attitude. You said that basically it's only neo-nazi who aren't thanksful for American involvement in World War II - well Radagast and Fenir seem to be a very ungrateful bunch and I know they aren't the only ones who have distain for the US - no matter what we do.

I said I think no one in Western Europe can be ungrateful for the aid we received from America and the other allied forces 60 years ago. Without the liberation, Europe would have looked a lot different than it does today. I don't think any one here in Europe, whose land was liberated (and this is once again my own opinion) would have chosen for the Europe that would have evolved without the liberation.

However, our gratitude for the outcome on D-Day does not mean we must agree with the actions that the USA is taking today. 60 years ago there was a different Europe and a different America. In my most honest opinion we can be perfectly grateful for the aid we received in the Second World War and still be free to criticise the actions America -or any other country that took part in the liberation.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They just weren't questioning our involvement - they have an obvious disdain for America. They haven't shown any gratitude - but contrary to your observations - they have shown plenty of ingratitute toward us.

I will let Fenir and Radagast speak for themselves here.

Have you per chance had the opportunity to witness the international remembrance celebration on the French beach today? If you have I don't think you could truly think that Europe is ungrateful for D-Day.

[Hemel]

Just as a matter of interest ... is there anything, JD, for which the US are grateful to Europe (whatever that is)? Or the Brits? Or even ... shock, gasp ... the English?

Or are we getting too far off topic now?



And a PS .... wouldn't it be better for us to say - we owe that generation so much? I REALLY dislike this wrangling over Europe and USAmerica, and especially today of all days.

[QueenAnnesLace]

I, or more accuratley my grandparents, may wish to drop to their knees in gratitude for US involvement in the world wars, but I do not.

[/b]

I THANK and kiss my lucky stars for what I have now. Your grandparents AND mine have the same thing to be grateful for. AND so do WE. You can not possibly not be thankful for that ---no matter who did what they did. (even though we know the count).[/B]

And before you say that I should be forever grateful for my skin, and wrap my childrens puppies in the US flag, may I remind you that you currently 'disdain' the french, for their non envolement in Iraq.

You are talking hogwash. The French have either bailed out, stayed neutral, or been two faced (no other way to put it).

Tell me, was the Statue of Liberty quarried in New Jersey? You seemed to have liked the French once. Perhaps, they have done something RECENTLY, that you dont like?

Do you catch my point?

And as for the statue of liberty-what is your point? It was NOT thing WE (Americans) wanted....IT was a gift, from France none the less,it's still a question to me. OH- I know why they said, but ........

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hemel
Just as a matter of interest ... is there anything, JD, for which the US are grateful to Europe (whatever that is)? Or the Brits? Or even ... shock, gasp ... the English?

Yeha - but the thing is - how many threads are there where it's pockshots at Britain or Europe. I have no problem with Europe and I even said IN THIS THREAD - how I liked Britain and admired their strength and everything. I'm just tired of the constant American punching bag.


Eärniel - Yes I saw the Beach celebrations - they go on EVETY year. As soon as the day is over - French news goes back to the same arrogant and condesending attitude they have toward Americans and America. It would be nice to be TREATED as a friend and ally - instead of the view as "fat, lazy and ignorant" - when we aren't.

Actually Fenir - I have had a problem with most French people have met - not all - but in general most of them. As for there uninvolvement in Iraq - it was more than them just not supporting us - it was them lying to Powell and then going out their way to turn countries against us.

As for the Statue of Liberty - it wasn't quarried in France either - since it's not made of stone.

As QAL said - it was a GIFT - which was not inititally for us - but was going to go to Egypt. Egypt decided they didn't want it - so it was decided to make it for America. We had to pay for a lot of it too - it wasn't exactly free.

Is there anyone in the class that can tell little Fenir what the Statue of Liberty is made of? See fenir - I can be just as condescending as you. I just don't like stooping to that level. It's way too cheap and doesn't add anything to the conversation.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
So its good to see that 'we' are not the only ones who make blanket statments about other nations. You crap on and on about how "America" did not torture those Iraqis, just Americans, then perhaps some Europeans, not Europe, do not agree with your spin on things?

NO - it has been made clear that it is the MAJORITY of Europe that does not agree with America - even while their governments see the reason for taking down Saddam. Surely you have heard the poll performed by Europe that shows that the majority of Europeans think that the US is more dangerous than North Korea - right?

May I remind you again, my naive American, that Europe is not one people, nor one nation, but several, so you cannot say that "Europe" was un-grateful. Perhaps you have no idea what you are talking about? Oh perhaps?

Oh - I do know that Europe is made up of multiple countries. You however are completely ignorant of America and the fact that is made up of INDIVIDUAL states - with their own laws, customs and heritage too. You seem to paint all Americans in the same light. If when talking about America you mention ALL 50 states - then I will mention all your fringing countries. Untill then - maybe you should educate yourself on America - as much as I have educated myself on Europe.

The EU is currently working toward the same thing - and is close to developing the same thing that is the United States - a group of sovereign entities, under a federal government to handle defense, trade, ect. Might I remind you even up to the Civil War and beyond - it was the states that supplied the troop and were known as the New Jersey or New York regiments, etc.