08-01-2005, 04:21 PM | #121 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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DO NOT ATTACK THE MEMBER POSTER, DEBATE THE ISSUES often some take the position that their interpretation is the only one for an issue, this is almost never 100% true
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08-01-2005, 04:26 PM | #122 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-01-2005, 09:34 PM | #123 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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He did do good things as well. He brought many moral teachings to people that were completely pagan. However, I cannot possibly ignore the fact that he conquered Arabia by force of arms and his immediate followers interpreted his teachings in such a way that they conquered a great many surrounding countries in a likewise bloody and ruthless series of campaigns. Those that I call liberal Muslims claim that jihad is supposed to be a spiritual war. A spiritual war??? History screams the opposite. Quote:
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Note that I know nothing of Jimmy Swaggart. I'm not a supporter of his or a critic; I really know nothing of him. Some of the statements you're quoting do seem to me understandable, though. Quote:
I have not read the Koran. I have read a significant part of a book written by Muslims and called "An Introduction to Islam". I was given a history assignment for highschool of writing a fairly lengthy report about the rise of Islam. In order to write this essay, I read everything available from five or six sources about Muhammad and the rise of Islam. Just about all the information available was also written by Muslims, and therefore there is some likelihood that a bias existed in favor of Muhammad. Nonetheless, from history I was able to see that Muhammad started a bloodbath. The Koran describes Muhammad's rise to power as well. Here's what Muslims say about Jihad: Quote:
I would really like to agree with George Bush that these bombers are simply "murderers hijacking a religion." I think, however, based upon history and the Koran, that these bombers are interpreting the Koran correctly and liberal Muslims are not. Quote:
Between radical, original Islam and Christianity, there is (or should be!) a war going on. Quote:
Muhammad was persecuted by the tribe he grew up in, but then he became the persecutor within his own lifetime, and violently conquered everyone around him. His followers created new campaigns. There is a core that still sticks to Islam and adheres to it correctly as well, and I think that they're the radicals.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-02-2005 at 12:02 AM. |
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08-01-2005, 10:22 PM | #124 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Lief, you've done your homework and are correct in your conclusions and statements. That's not IMO, it's fact. If some refuse to accept it, you can't change that. It's very hard but true. Keep the seekers mind.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
08-01-2005, 10:48 PM | #125 |
Elf Lord
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Thanks for the support. What I am speaking is only my opinion based upon what evidence is available to me.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-02-2005 at 12:05 AM. |
08-02-2005, 09:17 AM | #126 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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08-02-2005, 10:21 AM | #127 | |
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Did Christian aggression begin with Christ? No, I think that rather, you'll find that Christian aggression began when Christianity became entwined with politics, and thus a tool of the politics. Christian aggression began centuries after Christ, and the religion's initial rise was swift and nonviolent.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-02-2005, 11:41 AM | #128 | |
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the same is true with the muslims... i highly doubt the terrorist leaders are true believers in "the word"... but you can bet they know how powerful a tool religion can be to influence those who have little to look forward to in day to day life basically, if muhammad never existed and all of the middle east was christian, the same (or nearly the same) issues would exist, because they are rooted in culture, the extreme division between rich and poor in the region, and the authoritarian governments that dominate the landscape there
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-02-2005, 11:58 AM | #129 | ||
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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08-02-2005, 12:17 PM | #130 | ||
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the source of all aggression is people, specifically individuals, they may try to influence via concepts, but the concepts themselves can only cause something if people choose to give the the weight of "absolute reality" Quote:
and the world isn't always logical either
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-02-2005, 12:26 PM | #131 | ||||
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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08-02-2005, 01:29 PM | #132 | |||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-02-2005, 01:40 PM | #133 | ||
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-02-2005, 02:26 PM | #134 | ||||
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Religions can also motivate people to extremes of moral behavior. Beliefs shape how people live their lives. Religions are foundations of beliefs. Islam and Christianity both have had a massive impact upon the way people think. The religion Islam directly caused the transformation of Arabia, and the destruction and transformation of numerous surrounding countries. The religion Christianity directly caused the transformation of the Roman Empire from within, and has spawned much of modern states' justice and society values, even in the secular world. These religions had direct and massive impact. Jesus and Muhammad had massive impact. Jesus in a direct way circumvented the aggressions of millions through his teachings. Muhammad in a direct way (in my opinion) spawned them. When a Muslim fundamentalist on the streets preaches violence, he sometimes spawns those thoughts and behaviors within his listeners. They would not have had an outlet if not for him- or at least not so destructive an outlet, in many cases. When a Muslim liberal preaches peace, he too can have a direct influence for good upon his listeners. Religions can create aggression. They also can create peace. Beliefs have a direct and powerful impact upon what people think and do. Quote:
The original Christians had nothing to do with violence. They suffered, but did not retaliate. This is different from Islam, for Muhammad actually commanded his followers to fight. "O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty unto Him." Go here if you wish to see it in context: http://quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get....ng=009:121-125 . . . and declared that those able to fight that shirked their duty would be punished in eternity. Sura 9:81-96 "Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the apostle of God. They hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the cause of God. They said, ‘Go not forth in the heat.’ [YA: "The Tabuk expedition had to be undertaken hurriedly in the heat of summer, because of a threat or fear of Byzantine invasion."] [This war took place late in 630AD and is the first war against Christians.] ...If, then, God bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say, ‘Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me. For ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion. Then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind.’ Nor do thou ever pray for any of them that dies, nor stand at his grave. For they rejected God and his apostle, and died in a state of perverse rebellion. Nor let their wealth nor their sons dazzle thee. God's plan is to punish them with these things in this world, and that their souls may perish in their (very) denial of God. When a sura comes down, enjoining them to believe in God and to strive and fight along with his apostle, those with wealth and influence among them ask thee for exemption, and say, ‘Leave us (behind). We would be with those who sit (at home).’ They prefer to be with (the women), who remain behind (at home). Their hearts are sealed and so they understand not. But the apostle, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons. For them are (all) good things, and it is they who prosper. God hath prepared for them gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein ... There is no blame on those who are infirm, or ill, or who find no resources to spend (on the cause), if they are sincere (in duty) to God and his apostle ... Nor (is there blame) on those who came to thee to be provided with mounts, and when thou saidst, ‘I can find no mounts for you’ they turned back. Their eyes streaming with tears of grief that they had no resources wherewith to provide the expenses..." Quote:
I don't know what you mean when you say you highly doubt terrorist leaders are true believers in Islam. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-02-2005 at 02:57 PM. |
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08-02-2005, 02:52 PM | #135 | |||
Elf Lord
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The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! . . . O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom, On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard." As we were speaking of derogatory statements, I thought that that quotation from someplace might be appropriate . . . Quote:
Who do you think said that? Osama Bin Laden? Here these passages from the Koran can be seen in context: http://qb.gomen.org/Quranbrowser/cgi/bin/get.cgi
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-02-2005 at 02:54 PM. |
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08-02-2005, 03:07 PM | #136 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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well said lief... i agree about religion being a motivator for both good and bad... which is why i think that absolute belief in any form of religion (or atheism) has more negatives than positives... it can lead someone to do good, but it can also lead someone to do evil... the key point is that more weight is put in the written or spoken word as opposed to ones own judgement or opinion
much better to take the path most in the western world have... keeping their religion "at home" and outside government... and not just that, but willing to bend the rules a bit here and there to better relate with those around them Quote:
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think about a dirt poor muslim who has grown up losing half his family and seeing violence and death on a day to day basis... will he behave terribly different than a dirt poor christian in uganda who grows up in much the same environment? compare these two to another two people growing up in suburban america... a christian and a muslim, who grow up best of friends and lead happy properous lives two of these four people are "muslim" and two are "christian"... but those labels mean very little in terms of defining what they are about... life experience is what has made them what they are, and those religious labels draw people away from these very important factors that people don't like to discuss, because they are so difficult to change... much much easier to pin it on the book they subscribe to
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08-02-2005, 03:09 PM | #137 | ||
An enigma in a conundrum
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YES...and NO.. There are more calls for Muslims to kill than their are Christians who do kill. We won't go into definition of whose a Christian as I'm sure that would be an never ending post. Overall more Muslims have killed other Muslims and non-muslims in the past, present and have planned to do so in the future; those are facts. Again there is no call for Christians to kill anyone. Quote:
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08-02-2005, 03:29 PM | #138 | |
Elf Lord
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An interesting thing about this, though, is that I think you're pretty much right. While these people are religious, they are probably more motivated by personal gain. They think themselves religious too, but they are more motivated by selfishness. However, I'm of the opinion that many of those early Muslim leaders had a similar attitude. Looking at history, I can't see much difference between them and these "extremists". Is the self-oriented leader a "true" Muslim? No. But it is interesting.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-02-2005, 03:33 PM | #139 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-02-2005, 03:42 PM | #140 |
Elf Lord
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A difficulty lies in the fact that a major part of Muslim doctrine is the infallibility of scripture, I believe. They're like Christians, in that way.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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